Do I deserve pink chaddis?

*Chaddi is a word used interchangeably for “shorts” or “briefs/panties”.

This is a post I’ve been planning to do since long, because it was after a long time some event had made me introspect and analyze things with utmost depth possible, and yet leave me, possibly, without answer. Also, this post is going to be very, very frank. Everyone tends to push the innermost workings of their minds under the carpet. But quite the opposite of that, I’m going to reveal it as explicitly and plainly as possible. So, in certain ways this post is going to be EXPLICIT. So, the reader’s forbearance is requested. Also, I’ll try my best to set the sequence of my thoughts in an algorithm-like structure. So, it’d be easier to dissect it, and discuss the same.

First, I’ll have to tell something about myself to establish a proper context. As of now, I am preparing for postgraduate (PG) medical entrance exams, for which I’ve joined a particular coaching institute in a city different than the one indicated in my profile. I stay in a hostel, which consists mainly of other PG-aspirants just like me. We have a mess, where we have our meals, and at other times, it serves as the reading room.

Before I describe the very trivial incident, let me make it amply clear that the fact that I’m blogging about it, only implies that I’ve thought a lot over it. And I urge the reader to be patient, and specifically ask me where something that I try to explain remains unclear. This disclaimer is necessitated because I suspect apppreciable number of readers, if they read this post would be tempted to send me pink chaddis! But, I’m not giving my postal address! 😛

There is this girl in the ladies’ hostel (just next to the hostel where I stay), owned by the same owner as my hostel, who attends the same coaching institute as me, but in a different batch and schedule. My interaction with her has been nil. And she uses the same reading room and the mess. This girl, as far as I’ve seen, interacts only with boys from her alma mater, which is in a different city from where I’ve been staying. And, I hadn’t taken any special notice of that fact, though it had registered in my mind. I wouldn’t think much about such issues, for simple reason–they don’t affect me, and moreover, there is fundamentally nothing wrong with that. Just that the event I’m about to describe made me think also about all this. As to what’s her opinion about other fellow female hosteliites to be not interacting with them at all, or conversely what do other female inmates think about her.

The incident was this: I had gone to the mess to have my lunch (I don’t study at that particular study room, but do so in my own hostel room), and I was at the table where the food is laid for us to help ourselves, the girl was ahead of me in a sort of short queue that was formed, and my gaze fell on her flank. And I felt such an intense revulsion that I turned away my gaze with disgust. What I saw was her exposed flank because of a triangular ‘side-cut’ in her shirt. The area exposed was more than 50 centimeter sqaured, with part of her innerwear’s elastic band visible. Now for those wondering how did I reach the magical figure of 50 cm2, just think of a square of 10 cm sides (100 cm2), and cut it half at the diagonal.

Actually, for someone with perfectly normally working hormones like me, I should’ve stared on. My female readers might be disgusted by this suggestion. But then, I believe, I’m going to do full justice to all the moral considerations involved in this particular event, which is prototypical of what one gets to see day-in-and-day out. All this got over in a less than a second, and nor must have I turned away my head in a violent motion to draw anyone’s attention. Basically, no one around noticed what had happened.

But this got me thinking as to why did I feel disgusted, as afterall what she wears is entirely her prerogative.

I’ll make a few clarifications here, right at the outset:
1. I did not gossip about it with others.
2. I did not give her a ‘look’.
3. I would never think of harming her in anyway on account of what she chooses to wear.
4. If I were to ever interact with her, I’d do so with utmost courtesy that I would reserve for anyone I’d be talking to for the first time.

Of course, to clarify, her dress was in deed out of the ordinary for what other girls wear at this place, especially when coming to study or eat. Moreover, she herself had worn that dress for the first time, and to the extent I remember, she never had repeated it.

I drew this conclusion–‘she wanted to expose her flank and elastic band to draw attention to herself’. Of course, I’ll first try to address the concern as to why did I draw the above conclusion. I had an argument in my head in attempt to make maximum possible allowance for that girl.

Allowance 1: She must have not realized that the dress was revealing.

Answer: She has always been meticulously dressed even on other days, when she used to wear Salwar-Kameez. Most of the people when the buy their clothes, try them. This girl used to wear relatively costly dresses, and it was unlikely that she must have bought it from some street-side hawker and didn’t get and an opportunity to try it. Dressing is a skill, and she had been good at it, so it’s unlikely that even if in an unlikelier event that she did buy the said shirt from a roadside hawker, she wouldn’t know that the dress would be at least 7 to 8 cm short of the trouser’s waist.

Allowance 2: She must have dressed in a hurry.

Answer: Didn’t look like that. Her dress was well-ironed. Her hair wasn’t disheveled or anything, and she was taking her food quite leisurely, and also eating it equally leisurely.

Allowance 3: She must have been comfortable with that sort of dressing.

Answer: Possibly, yes. But that had got me thinking as to why we choose the kinds of dresses that we choose? We buy clothes such that they cover those parts of our bodies that we don’t want others to see, especially strangers. I wear a shirt/T-shirt whenever I move out or my room, for simple reason I’d feel embarrassed to allow others to see my bare chest and back, etc. Likewise, I wear trousers that cover my groin area completely! Sorry, couldn’t help it. Had to bring in the last example to clarify. So, I reached this conclusion that she did not mind revealing her flank and the elastic band of her innerwear.

Allowance 4: So what? What if she’s comfortable with revealing her flank and the elastic band? That does not establish intent to reveal.

Answer: When she must have bought that particular shirt, she must have had the option of buying one that did not reveal her flanks. It must have not been very difficult to buy a shirt that would be just 8 to 10 cm lower, and jeans that would be an inch or two higher. Afterall, all other days she had been wearing clothes that were not revealing in the same way. But yes, there is indeed a subtle difference between ‘not minding’ revealing and ‘wanting’ to reveal. How do I know it was the latter and not the former? I concede, this is difficult to answer. But, I’ll give an example. If at a tea stall, you order Pepsi, and the waiter comes and tells you they don’t have it, and offers you to have Coke instead, if you say, “Okay, alright!”, then, that’s what is ‘not minding’, but if you ask for Pepsi in the first place, then you ‘want’ Pepsi, and does not amount to ‘not minding’ it. So, I believe, this adequately establishes the intent to expose, so to say.

Allowance 5: Okays, so what if she wanted to reveal? How does it make me conc
lude that she wanted to draw attention?

Answer: This is most difficult to explain, but if I’ve to assume that she did not want to draw attention, how do I explain someone carefully choosing clothes that precisely are going to reveal one’s flanks and the elastic band? I could attribute random behavior to, maybe, a small child doing things on whim, like wanting to stand on a table and not wanting to climb down, or children of 2 to 3 years not willing to eat their food, but how do I do that for someone in their twenties? It’s either random impulse or it’s well planned attempt to draw attention. And considering her age, it was much likely to be the latter.

Allowance 6: Okay, so what if she chooses to wear revealing clothes? What’s my problem?

Answer: Nothing! Honestly, I have no problems with what she wears. What all I thought about the issue till that point, and for a few minutes beyond did not affect me in any way!

Now, I’ll point out a few things that people do. Do ask yourself if you find them disgusting or not:
1. Picking of nose in public
2. Scratching of groin (in public)
3. People making lousy noises while eating, or licking their fingers passionately while eating

Do you find all or any of the about disgusting?

Yes? What’s your problem?

But they disgusted you, right? Isn’t it precisely their prerogative to likewise to use their fingers, nose, mouth and other orifices the way they want to?

No, but honestly, what I saw about that girl disgusted me beyond reasons involved in above three examples.

Now I will try to explain, why.

The other three examples I gave–what do they tell us about the people concerned? That they are coarse, possibly unhygienic, inconsiderate of others’ attention, and lack a sense of aesthetics.

But why did I feel more disgusted at that girl?

Because that attitude is representative of things fundamentally so wrong with any human being. Picture this:

You’re talking with someone. Possibly, the person is talking something grave, and a part of you wants that person to be distracted by you if of the opposite gender, or if the same gender, to be envious of you! This is hypocrisy of highest kind. Not being truthful to oneself, as well as to one’s present. Also, such a person is living their life on others’ terms, wanting their approval. And approval from any random person, not specifically the people they themselves value.

I have to make many more clarifications. I’ll feel the same kind of disgust if I see someone trying to show off their knowledge out of context, or status or wealth. Or those saying “yes” all the time to please others. Or considering themselves as much worthy as gauged by just about anyone. All these things have one thing common to them–lack of truthfulness to oneself, a lack of certain kind of straightforwardness. Honestly, I wouldn’t have disrespect for someone plainly going and asking someone–“Do you think I’m attractive enough?” What I don’t like is the subliminal influencing through any means. At a much larger scale, it’s the same kind of hypocrisy that makes our politicians do things subversive to the interests of the country in name of benefit to one ‘community’ or the other. Also, how little or high is the chance that persons not averse to wearing revealing clothes to attract attention of just about anyone, wouldn’t do so at the workplace to get promotions, or colleges to get extra marks (something I’ve myself noticed happening)? Is this honorable? Of course, the one giving into such distractions and extending undue favors would be deserving of same blame of indulging in immorality (click).

But, what had really agitated me was that once there was a spat between one of the coordinators of our coaching institute and the owner of the hostel regarding quality of the food served, and coincidentally, when the aforementioned girl was present their, she had been labeled as “characterless” by the hostel owner, because she had been going out alone with guys at night on walk. I was really disgusted by the owner. Afterall, he had no right to interfere with her personal life, who she moved out with, what all she did, and I too had made all the right noises as to how, the girl is a mature, grown up adult, and it was very, very mannerless of the owner to have said that. But a part of me was wondering, did I not also conclude the same thing a month back (then)? That was my hypocrisy. To have something with utmost verbal strength, but just half strength of actual conviction behind those words. And quite obviously, the girl left the hostel to live elsewhere in some days.

Some more clarifications:

1. I never felt even once that owning to her dressing, she deserved to be badmouthed, or eve teased, or molested.

2. I think a saree can be much more revealing than what she was wearing, if so intended by the one wearing.

3. I’m no fan of idea of “preservation of culture”, something I might discuss in one of my coming posts. I’ve not even mentioned the Indian culture perspective above.

4. What all I’ve analyzed for the above girl applies to males, as well as to all other spheres of life.

5. I’d try my best to not be judgmental about the girl, if were to have any interaction with her. But, my above conclusions will definitely weigh heavily on me. If I find her a nice, upright person otherwise, I’d really be forced to do a rethink on my criteria for judging people. Maybe, I’d try to know her better, and understand, why would she like to wear those kind of clothes, which would make people notice only the superficial aspects of her personality, and maybe, not value her emotions, thoughts, words, deeds, or innovative ideas? But on the whole, in my life, whenever I’ve tried too hard to make allowances for others’ acts that I would find objectionable, I’ve ended up on the wrong side of judgment, meaning, those people have indeed turned out to be unreliable and opportunistic.

The crux of this post is, if someone has right to wear whatever they want, or behave however they like, I have equal right to draw conclusions about them. Of course, I don’t have any right to impose my beliefs on them. And such conclusions are bound to have bearing on how generous would I be with them, or how sympathetic I’d feel if they’re troubled. And most important, how much would I respect them as fellow humans.


115 thoughts on “Do I deserve pink chaddis?

  1. yes everyone has the right to make conclusions on the basis of dressing..Most of the time i think dressing often gives out the details of a persons character.. Dressing is an extension of a persons character..If she is wearing a revealing outfit,, then the reasons is that she wants you to think exactly the way you have thought.. she wants u to look the other way.. But the same attire will attract the person that she wants to attract…if one wants to attract a introvert or homely person a salwar kameez, and a shy smiles does the trick but if you want want to attract a very active, out going, and lively person then a short skirt and a look into the eyes does the trick

  2. Uncommon sense,Thanks for your perspective on the post!Yes, I agree with the first part–what one wears is an extension of one's personality. For instance, different inferences can be made about two persons wearing different kind of shirts. Tastes and attitude towards life would definitely be different in one choosing to wear shirts with fine vertical linings or textures as against someone wearing bold solids or embroidered shirts.For the second part, I want to point out that my contempt is for the fundamental idea of deliberately 'attracting', i.e., drawing attention in any form–not just dressing. Be it manner of speaking, flattery, cracking distasteful jokes, throwing deliberate tantrums, large-scale emotional blackmail, 'flaunting' money (mind you, not earning money and enjoying it; that's different from flaunting). And wearing revealing clothes is just part of that. The contemptible thing about it is living of terms of others–the one you want to attract.I've nothing against the manner of attraction. If I were to know that a girl was trying to attract attention by trying to act demure, I'd have exactly the same contempt for her as for the girl I mentioned in the post. The thing with wanting to attract is one is not being faithful to the moment in which they're living.Imagine, someone flaunting their new cell phone while talking his friend. That person is partly pretending to talk to the friend, because one of his mind would be occupied by 'if someone is noticing my cell phone'–that's what I mean by not being faithful to the moment in which one is living. And this trait is indicative of a much greater degree of hypocrisy in other spheres of life, viz., by saying (projecting) one thing–but meaning to do something entirely different.Personally, I would not get attracted to a girl however good looking if I wouldn't be impressed by her intelligence or keen sense of observation or originality of thinking, and of course sufficient confidence in herself so as to not want to count the number of heads she's able to turn as an indicator of personal worth–in simple words, she should be confident of herself. That would be irrespective of whether she wears salwar-kameez or T-shirt with jeans.TC.

  3. ketan it all boils down to the same thing… Even if we try not to project some things, it becomes a differnt kind of projection.. some people show off and some dont,, that is just their character they are not choosing to do so, but by default its their nature.. i guess if we all become same then there wont be any fun in life.. we need show offs, introverts and all other people.. that is what makes the world a world..

  4. If someone has right to wear whatever they want, or behave however they like, I have equal right to draw conclusions about them.In the same vein, I have equal right to draw conclusions about you based on your way of thinking. And that is how the world is. I don't think that while speaking on the phone with a friend, if I'm thinking about what are ppl thinking about my new mobile, I'm not being true to the moment. Maybe I'm multitasking ie. showing off my mobile and talking to my friend at the same time.And you don't deserve Pink Chaddis either because you aren't imposing your views forcefully on others. You are just saying what you think.You saw some skin – you were disgusted and thought less of the girl – fine. She showed some skin – she doesn't care who saw it, and she cares even less of what you think of her.Maybe someone else also saw that skin and thought the girl was sexy and confident enough to carry that kind of an outfit. Maybe he admired her for her confidence and maybe also how her skin looked.I read this post and I thought sometimes you think too much. But knowing you from your other posts and the length with which you put in clarifications, I concluded that you're not a bad/regressive person after all.All four of us have the right to think what we may want to and that's I guess where it ends. Unless you have another dimension to add 🙂

  5. @Uncommon sense:I agree, everyone indulges in some kind of projection at some time, but doesn't make it honorable or immune to critiquing. If all brahmins indulge in untouchability, it would not become legitimate or alright. If all vehicles become careless about their vehicles' emissions, it would not become alright.Extrovert is different from show-off. The former speak what's actually in their mind, the latter speak what they want others to think about them (and mislead them). And just like that reticent/introvert is not the opposite of truthful. A reticent person may speak very little, but that doesn't mean each time they open the mouth, it would be the truth.@Rakesh:First, one more clarification. By whatever I write in my blog/comments about morality and rationality, I never mean to imply I'm perfect. In fact, I've learnt many lessons of life, only from finding flaws in my own way of thinking or drawing conclusions.Yes, you're absolutely within your right to draw conclusions about me. That's why I make sure whatever I write is as precise as possible, and if a reader would want to draw conclusions about me, they better be consistent with I mean to convey–including the 55ers. 😉 But yes, regarding that I've decided to not put an explanation with the posts henceforth. :)Yes, I agree with what you've to say about the phone thing. Maybe, I didn't make adequate distinction between feeling conscious and/or excited about their new phone and actually trying to show it off. If one's trying to concentrate on their conversation with the friend, but is getting distracted by people staring at him, then that's different from he deliberately trying to draw attention (by say, talking louder than necessary, making excessive movements or allowing the phone to ring for longer) and yet talking to the friend.Rakesh, if you're trying to imply that the girl did not deliberately try to draw attention, then I've tried to address that in my allowance about 'intent'.Yes, if someone, admires her skin, I've no problems with that. About I wouldn't call that confidence, because (in my opinion), rather than confidence, attention she wants is a kind of crutch–a validation she seeks from random strangers for her existence. And you know what in a guy would I find disgusting?…

  6. …If he goes and says to the girl, "Would you like be my friend?", and sometime later when they become 'friends', if he tells her–"Your eyes are so beautiful. I love you!" Whereas, the actual fact would be he'd have found something entirely different 'beautiful'. It'd be funny, but I'd find it not at all objectionable if he goes and tells her–"Wow! You're a total babe! I couldn't help gazing at your panty-strip. I couldn't decide which of the two was more breath-taking!" [<—-another possible reason my love life sucks 😉 ].I think too much… LOL. I don't entirely disagree. I think to extent that's statistically abnormal. Agreed. But if you drew this impression from my this particular post that each time I'd get disgusted by something, I'd jot down on paper an algorithm as to why I found it disgusting, then that's not the case. 🙂 Even my responses to most life-situations are instinctive. But then, as everybody must realize our primal instincts are not necessarily reliable, I find it obligatory that I try to find a rational basis for that. Was it not easy for me to keep on staring at her exposed skin, or to gossip about it and tell my friends, "You know what? That girl…"? But instead, I for the first time felt the need to examine my disgust for those deliberately wearing revealing clothes. which you may consider a morbid condition afflicting my brain or maybe admire me for trying to be as reasoned as possible.A part of the reason behind my train of thoughts was 'why did I rather get disgusted rather than attracted towards her?'. I believe, even the Sri Ram Sene goons who beat up the girls didn't get disgusted by them, rather they were attracted towards them, that's why they also molested them, but instead I felt disgust, which intrigued me!And again Rakesh, after such an elaborate laying down of the chain of thoughts in my mind, I've not left out the possibility that I might find the girl a good/ human being (considerate, honest, benevolent, etc.).Also again, I point out, I'm not free of hypocrisy myself. I've pointed that out in the post. But, I would not feel offended if someone points that out to me with reasoning.Thinking for me is compulsive; I can't tell my mind, "Hey mind, stop there! Don't let that next thought come into you!", now can I? ;)Thanks for reading and your analyses, though I believe it won't stop here. ;)TC.

  7. …If he goes and says to the girl, "Would you like be my friend?", and sometime later when they become 'friends', if he tells her–"Your eyes are so beautiful. I love you!" Whereas, the actual fact would be he'd have found something entirely different 'beautiful'. It'd be funny, but I'd find it not at all objectionable if he goes and tells her–"Wow! You're a total babe! I couldn't help gazing at your panty-strip. I couldn't decide which of the two was more breath-taking!" [<—-another possible reason my love life sucks 😉 ].I think too much… LOL. I don't entirely disagree. I think to extent that's statistically abnormal. Agreed. But if you drew this impression from my this particular post that each time I'd get disgusted by something, I'd jot down on paper an algorithm as to why I found it disgusting, then that's not the case. 🙂 Even my responses to most life-situations are instinctive. But then, as everybody must realize our primal instincts are not necessarily reliable, I find it obligatory that I try to find a rational basis for that. Was it not easy for me to keep on staring at her exposed skin, or to gossip about it and tell my friends, "You know what? That girl…"? But instead, I for the first time felt the need to examine my disgust for those deliberately wearing revealing clothes. which you may consider a morbid condition afflicting my brain or maybe admire me for trying to be as reasoned as possible.A part of the reason behind my train of thoughts was 'why did I rather get disgusted rather than attracted towards her?'. I believe, even the Sri Ram Sene goons who beat up the girls didn't get disgusted by them, rather they were attracted towards them, that's why they also molested them, but instead I felt disgust, which intrigued me!And again Rakesh, after such an elaborate laying down of the chain of thoughts in my mind, I've not left out the possibility that I might find the girl a good/ human being (considerate, honest, benevolent, etc.).Also again, I point out, I'm not free of hypocrisy myself. I've pointed that out in the post. But, I would not feel offended if someone points that out to me with reasoning.Thinking for me is compulsive; I can't tell my mind, "Hey mind, stop there! Don't let that next thought come into you!", now can I? ;)Thanks for reading and your analyses, though I believe it won't stop here. ;)TC.

  8. @Rakesh: And also, what do you think of ethical issue involved in people trying to gain mileage (promotion in workplace/marks in exams) by wearing revealing clothes, which is not very different from buttering the boss of bribing the examiner to gain more marks? And of course, one giving promotion under such circumstances would be equivalent to accepting of bribe by the examiner.

  9. @ ketanregarding the question u asked rakesh about the ethical issues..if some one is doing buttering, or gaining extra mileage by wearing revealing clothes, i wud say its just their talent..if nature has endowed someone with intelligence, then it has given beauty or smartness to others.. if we once can use our intelligence for getting better promotion then others are entitled to use their beauty, sexiness or anything that they have been endowed with

  10. Uncommon sense:I don't have an idea as to what component of intelligence is genetic, and how much is mental hardwork. So yes, I can somewhat concede that it's fair if someone is 'naturally' unintelligent.You've looked at the situation from a very narrow angle of 'wanting to succeed'.Supposedly, promotions are to be awarded for working in a manner that benefits the organization one is working for. Exposing (oneself to the boss) and buttering usually, don't benefit the organization in any way, rather, if they become the basis of awarding promotions, then it would become a disincentive for those working sincerely, or pumping in innovative ideas to work efficiently. Hence, exposing and revealing in context of an organization to gain promotions is immoral.Likewise, exams are (supposedly; that our education system is entirely screwed up is a different matter) for testing students' knowledge and ability to think. So in this context, anything other than knowledge and understanding of the subjects that results in higher score is unethical.If apply your standard, and say–"God has bestowed me with lot of money by sending me to a rich family, and if I can bribe my way through exams, why not?", would bribing be right or wrong. [I'm not rich, and it's not God who's sent me here]Remember, I've not called exposing and buttering itself as wrong–it's very specifically in context of leaving someone else (more deserving) behind in promotions. If I were posted in sales or public relations and if I'm able to attract customers and placate the complainants by exposing and/or buttering, I wouldn't consider that wrong. It'd be within the goals of the organization of maximizing the profits, to which I'd be obliged (though, I wouldn't like to run such an organization).And one more question, then, what's the basis of deciding something to be morally right or wrong, if the only determinant of our actions would be to get things by 'hook or by crook'? How would murder/rape be wrong? "'Nature' didn't make my wife beautiful, so I'm at a disadvantage, and I'll have sex with the next attractive lady I see. That I can use my ability to run away from the police, and that I'd be physically stronger than her are my talents. I'll use them to get what I want." How would this position be wrong?TC.

  11. now i guess we hv reached a whole differnt level and this argument is not going to end if we continue..still i wud say some thing..if she can butter the boss, she can butter the clients and the employess too making profit for the company.about ideas and innovation, well she can get that too from other people by doing the same thing.. so i dont think there will be any loss to the organisation..if someone cheats to pass, then he has some talent thought not related to the subject,, but he can very well cheat throughout life.. without having the knowledge and get ahead of his class mates.. its his talent.. he is not intelligent but smarterwe are all born with abilities and disability and i think born in a rich family is a ability, some people are born blind they have started from a worse plank then you have.. so if the blind person says u are cheating because u have eyes, so u are supposed to become blind so that i get fair treatment, fair competition,your wife is not born ugly u married a wife who is ugly, so u dont have tht option..about killing someone, its way too complex it will be too lengthy.. the person in the army is a killer too, the judge is a killer.. its a big subject.. i cant write it here..In a sense we both are right, and my experience tells these things dont have any outcome..u know i m right and i know u are right. we both know in a sense we both are right.. but still.. the subject is such that we can keep on arguing and it will not end, it will just keep on skipping from subject to subject

  12. @Uncommon sense:First, let's not use a specific gender for buttering–it could be both male or female. But I understand, while writing, it's difficult to maintain precision all the times. :)I didn't understand your point of how a person by buttering (or exposing) could get innovative ideas into the company by doing the same to innovative people. They'd rather be most disgusted with him/her 'cuz he/she would be responsible for their loss of promotion. I've not much idea of how software companies work, but, I don't think someone trying to develop new code for a software would find it an incentive to be told by the one buttering the boss–"Hey, that's a cute little code you've developed, sweetie. And honey, I just luuuuuv your new tie!", fully knowing that the one thus buttering is responsible for their loss of promotion and more important–that his/her praise is totally fake.Yes, cheating in an exam is also a skill, and it also has places where it can be employed morally, like, in spying. But the point is cheating in an exam remains wrong because that is not the skill being tested.Please elaborate how being born in a rich family is an ability, like it is an ability to speak well with people, or plan well, or teach, or argue, or act, etc?When I alluded to the example of my wife, I also implied I got an ugly wife, because I was born ugly, born poor, born unintelligent, born lazy, and no one else apart from another person born ugly would be ready to marry me.Yes, you've rightly pointed out some of the moral dilemma concerning murder. An army soldier kills enemies who intend to kill his fellow countrymen, and thus the enemy soldier he kills are not innocent in having intention to kill others, and thus the enemy soldiers are at fault. But if the soldier thinks his government's policies are flawed, he has the right to not join the army in the first place.Likewise, a judge is supposed to first establish the degree of guilt (determined by the nature of provocation for committing the crime) as well as intent of the one convicted (of the crime). Then only he/she passes the judgement of capital punishment. So, the one being killed is sufficiently at fault. But again, the judge has a right to resign on finding the said laws unfair…

  13. …Whereas, if one, butters and seduces their boss into promotion for themselves, then they're depriving someone else more deserving of promotion who is not at faultYes, you're right, we've moved far from the original topic.I absolutely agree morality and ethics are tricky subjects, and a lot can be debated on them. And to have an effective dialogue, we must understand why we call moral/immoral, what we call moral/immoral, just like the issue you've discussed in your yesterday's post.If you want to get a rough idea of my basis of morality, here (click), is the post.If we have different standards of morality, we can both be wrong as well as right in our own places, but if we agree on the bases of what's moral and what's not, we should be concerned if we disagree on any act with regard to its moral nature.Also, the actual implication of the event I described in the post is very small 'cuz I'm unlikely to come in contact with that girl, and 'I also have a right to conclude whatever I want to', but when saying the latter thing, we forget that we also have responsibility of being honest and rational. That responsibility need not be towards another person or the 'society', but I believe, is towards myself.And the purpose of this post through the discussion I have with others is to find out if there's a flaw in my extrapolation of her wearing revealing clothes making her unworthy of my respect, generosity and sympathy sometime later. That's because, I'm going to apply same system of judgement to anyone I encounter unless and until I find a flaw in my thinking. And thus to scrutinize my principles of morality, thus, becomes significant.Honestly, but I enjoyed discussion with you. It gives a new perspective for me to look at things, and also challenges me to verify my long and confidentally held prejudices/convictions, which I don't scrutinize on a daily-basis.TC.

  14. buttering will also include sexual favours, showing as if one is in love tht kind of thing.suppose take the software example, assuming the person is a dumbo, hasnt got much idea about how to work this thing out, one can become friendly with opposite sex, and ask them to do it on her behalf,, means can offer sexual favours.. as it use to happen in schools.. someone doing someone elses work for various reasons…school system is all faulty,, now this cheater had the talent to become spy but he was caught in 10th board exam copying and he was thrown out.. so in future he cant seek to be a spy thou being gd at it.. some ppl might be gd in science but terrible in maths.. so he cant take sciene because the education system is all faulty.. education system first tries to check all useless skills in which he might not be interested or capable.. so its the systems fault and not the individuals..being born in a rich family adds many benefits, first power, influence, quality of life, better quality of education, these all are benefits which are very important. Ask the child born in slum and he will tell that these are abilities..if u got a ugly wife because of your lack of talent then how will u get someone beautiful to cheat without a most cases the killer things killing is fine. according to him he is right,, take terrorists for xample.. as i said before this killing topic is complex,, it has to be discussed starting from animals,, else its point less if we dont start from could some one else is more deserving, if he didnt get the promotion then he didnt had the right talent… the person who was smarter buttered and got ahead but that doesnt mean that the person who buttered has lesser talent, he just had an additional talent + the talent which your deserving candidate had..I wont be reading your views on morality as of now,, as it could influence me.. i will read only after i have myself thought about wht morality is according to me..yes its always better to look at the perspective of others, i enjoyed discussion too..

  15. I think Uncommon sense, you're right about how our arguments are going to turn circular this way, and quite irrelevant to the post.I won't respond to your above comments except for if you bring some fresh perspective, because unless and until you decide for yourself, what are criteria to term some act as moral v/s immoral, there's no point in trying to argue on any specific act being moral or not (e.g., buttering, exposing to get promotion, cheating in exam, cheating one's spouse to have sex with someone physically more attractive, etc.)Thanks again, for your time and views!TC.

  16. The cell phone example given by one of the commenter was interesting. If a guy, has the best/costliest/good looking/feature wise rich etc cell phone (according to him) and wants to show it off by placing some blinking light stickers or showing how big his display is, or show the voice recognition feature in that by talking loud – what would your reaction be? Would you write a similar post then? You would think that it is normal, he is excited about the new gadget that he has and keep walking. Or maybe even think how you yourself showed off your new car, bike or even dress to others that way and smile it away right? In fact, the above said person may feel less excited about the same phone after a few days. So, what I want to say is: Everyone has the urge inside us to be recognized/ listened to/ be praised/ get attention etc. If the girl is fishing for guys dressing like that, she better know that she is getting addicted to a certain type of having fun and the same might not last forever (like after marriage or 50+ etc). If she thinks she can manage without the same kind of pleasures when she is 50+ (after having been addicted to it all along), then it is fine. But if she is not able to adapt then it is a problem, for her. Both ways, I don't see why you should get affected by it! @Uncommon Sense: I don't think being born rich is always good. Or being born poor is always a bad thing. Being born rich many times means that the person is given a lot of skills, but most of the times, they are spoon-fed. Being born poor makes a lot of things unreachable to them, but if someone works their way up through those difficulties, they would gain much more skills than the rich person who has been spoon-fed or gets 'free' property which was earned by his dad/ previous generations. You often don't realize the value of things that you get 'free', without earning it yourself. Destination Infinity PS: I would like to know what IHM thinks about this 🙂

  17. Ketan a lot of people sort of judge other people (women and men)by the way they dress, but although you sort of disapproved of her displaying some skin, and although you did not even think of molesting or assaulting her, so I don't think you deserve pink chaddies. I think if you saw women dressed like this more often you will not even give a second thought.

  18. Destination Infinity,You're right, if I'd seen a guy/girl trying to show off their new cell phone, I wouldn't have done a post on it, but my conclusions about the person would've been the same. Here for me, the manner of show off is important. If it's one of my friends who comes and tells me, "See Ketan, I've bought this new phone. You know it's just wonderful. It has so and so features, and I just love it", I'll be very cool about it, really! But if someone, who doesn't have anything to do with me tries to impress me by drawing attention through 'clever' means you suggested, I'd consider it a very fundamental kind of dishonesty. Here, how many people indulge in it is a nonissue, 'cuz as I for instance pointed out, there was a time when majority of brahmins used to indulge in untouchability–that didn't make it any more alright. Same holds true for dowry–still a vast majority of 'marital transactions' occur under the shadow of dowry. Does it make it alright.The thing you've pointed about unsustainability of attractiveness is a very pertinent point, but that's something for that girl to understand!I've clearly stated in the post, what that girl wore had not affected me at all! But yes, it provoked me to think. And I've laid down the outcome of my thought processes in this post.The issue is this–I developed contempt towards her. Was that contempt justified or unjustified in the light of reasons I have above?Also, I'd like your ideas on people trying to gain advantage through seduction or sycophancy.Thanks for reading, commenting and complimenting (about the template)!TC.

  19. Thanks IHM for commenting!Honestly, if after living in a nude club, someone would come fully dressed, my conclusion would be the same as I mentioned for the above girl.The issue here is deliberately trying to be different from other–without gaining anything in the process.Yes, you're very right, if everyone around would've been wearing that kind of clothes, I wouldn't have thought anything particular about that girl. But the fact is everyone did not wear that kind of clothes–not even herself on most of the days.That's why I've given the analogy of Pepsi and Coke. What goes through the mind of a person choosing between buying something conventionally worn, and something not worn by the majority (something that shows one's flanks and the elastic band of one's panty in this case)? If someone would deliberately wear their shirt back-side-front, I'd again conclude that the person wants to draw attention. Would I be wrong?Also since, that topic has come up, I'd like you to opine on ethicality of wearing revealing clothes and sycophancy to gain mileage at workplace and educational institutes.TC.

  20. Also IHM,Please don't take this as an attack on women in general. I feel exactly the same for guys wearing low-waist jeans that'd reveal even the label of their underwear!The point is, it is for some reason these things are known as inner/underwear, and superheroes like Superman, Spiderman and Batman are ridiculed alike! 😉 The basic issue I want to discuss is people wanting to draw attention to themselves in subliminal way, and then proclaiming they "don't give a damn about what the world thinks", whereas, they'd be precisely clamoring for attention.And that's the same reason I've clubbed this tendency with showing off, bragging, emotional blackmail, throwing tantrums.The implications of such things are not very huge on surface, but whatever implications would be has been discussed by me in the last paragraph of the post.

  21. well, you have all the tright to be disgusted….for two reasons….one because u said u would be disgusted to see flank of man too….two because if I can get disgusted reading the title…and if i think I have right to do so, then you have right to get disgusted… long as how you felt did not turn into action. sorry not giving depth as much as i would like to or as much as you have given to the incident in the article. Just because i do not have that much time on hand and I always wonder how you manage to have so much time on hand, especially being a medical PG student.

  22. Hello, IWW!Thanks for your comments!Being a medico, I've seen things potentially much more disgusting than a mere flank–that too of both men and women, also the various things they produce. Okay, seeing flank is quite a nonissue for me. 🙂 I hope, I've been able to make that clear.The issue is about taking special care in dressing in such a manner so as to attract attention of others, and then thinking one's self worth to be proportionate to number of people's attention one can draw.And how I wish, I were a PG medical student. I'm just an aspirant as of now, meaning, have completed my MBBS, and preparing for the entrance exams. :)But I concede, I tend to spend more time online than my average competitors. :(TC.

  23. And one more thing IWW, when we say 'right' to draw our conclusions, it doesn't mean we can draw them wishfully. We'd still have the obligation to ourselves to try to be as honest, truthful and rational in our analyses. That's why you've seen such an elaborate description of sequence of thoughts in my mind. I want to be meticulous in doing so. If I talk to you and if I don't like your voice, though I've a right to conclude, I should not and would not conclude that you're a liar! Or alternatively, if I like your voice, it would be dishonest of me to think you always speak the truth. 🙂

  24. well, by saying 'seeing flank' i did mean to refer to issue at the heart…weather man or woman….it did not matter to you hence it was fine to get disgusted. well then good luck with PG exam… much as would like to read more blogs from u, hope to see the least with the assumption that all that time you did not write a post, u were studying for ur exams….:)

  25. It's not the writing posts that takes much time, but commenting that does. :(Thanks for your good wishes. Will try to do full justice to them. :)BTW, the comments about conservation of Indian culture that I'd referred to could be found in the post prior to the previous one called–'Residua'.

  26. I agree Ketan, writing/replying to comments takes more time than writing post itself and even the idle waiting period is the worst time wasting tool. Anyhow it is none of my biz how u spend ur time 🙂 Yes I have residua, just did not have a chance to reflect on those thoughts. I do not agree to your comment about how logic approach is needed in feeling something. I have 'right' to FEEL disgusted with anything without being logical as long as I do not impose my feelings or do not expect action to remove 'disgusting item/action' at the other end (something or someone who is giving this disugusting feelings) Feeling is something which does not need logic…… I have right to get disgusted at somebody who is watching TV 24/7… long as I do not ask that person to stop to do so. If I ask then I have to be logical why i feel it is disgusting. so going back to your example… do not have to give me reason if u like my voice, but u have to be reasoning out if u call me a liar…..

  27. Why don't you make allowance 7: the shirt the lady was wearing got torn during the day and she didn't notice. It has happened to me (and I am a guy): once when I was getting out of an auto int he morning, my jeans got snagged on a nail and got torn. I felt the drag of the nail on my jeans, but I didn't notice the tear till the end of the day when I got back home. That was when I realized that not only do my jeans have a big visible cut in them, but the nail had cut the skin under the jeans as well! And I hadn't noticed it the whole day.I think this is a much more likely explanation than that she did it deliberately.And even if the dress she was wearing was deliberately made that way… sure you can make your own conclusions about it, but your conclusions only reflect your own prejudices. I don't see any real difference between the conclusions you are making, and say, judging someone based on the colour of their skin.

  28. Ketan, with regards to intent, I think you're making a lot of assumptions that may not be valid. For instance about the pepsi and coke example, how do you know whether she 'asked' for that kind of shirt? Maybe she liked the colour and fit and she 'didn't mind' the revealing bit. And you make another unreasonable assumption about her being well to do and the unlikelihood of her buying a shirt from a roadside place without trying it on. Trying to be Sherlock Holmes there eh? The problem isn't the assumption itself but the grave judgments you make relying on those assumptions.With regards to the hypocrisy involved in wanting approval of other people, can I conclude that the purpose of you writing this blog is that you want approval about your writing skills and intellect. Now, I could make a few conclusions as well…1. Maybe you just enjoy writing and don't care about what people think of it.Ans: In that case, you'd write on your desktop and not on the internet.Your conclusion that if a person wears something like that casually, she is more prone to use her skin to get undue advantage in the workplace or similar situations is also far fetched. It is like saying that every person who buys a nice car will also wish to date a lot of girls. As regards your other question ie. is it right if she or anyone indeed uses their personal charm and attractiveness to get favours in the workplace? Well, you know, as much as you and I may want it to be, the world isn't ideal and isn't perfect (just like you and me aren't). Maybe women might use that trick to get only what is fairly due to them (supposing otherwise they are underpaid compared to men). Maybe they do actually take undue advantage and score over more deserving people by doing so. And as you've known yourself, a debate on morality can be a never ending one so we'll not go there.

  29. If you are asking about your thoughts about this being justified or not: I would say it was justified as long as it did not come out as a blog 🙂 About people trying to gain advantage through seduction, I don't think it is a skill that can be learnt to take advantage of. Primarily because it creates a compromise. When you get something easily, you would try to get it in the same way, always. At least, as much as possible. That creates a void in the learning of the original work that the person was supposed to do. If the person had not seduced the boss and attempted to complete the work, it could have made things harder but they would have at least gained some inputs/learnt about the work on hand. On a longer period, this I think would pay off. There are a lot of people developing short cuts (in many other ways than just seduction) for which they will pay slightly later. (There is also a different angle to this: It could be the same – first trying to get things done by seduction and then later on paying for it (or) first paying (through hard work/ learning the skills) and then later on enjoying the fruits of it. So, if we can over-generalize : it could be the same, but the society labels the first type of person as immoral and the second type of person keeps wondering if they would ever get the fruits of their hard work in this cruel world!)Destination Infinity

  30. Ketan,First, yes you do rather deserve pink chaddis! : P Probably pink polka dotted chaddis! Ok seriously speaking, it is not such a big deal that girl showed her flank, whether intentionally or unintentionally! However, yeah you expressed your opinion[s] and it is your right to do so. You are free to draw/paint/sketch conclusions and she is free to expose her flank, again, intentionally or unintentionally! To be honest with you, you would really hate western people, especially during summer! The reason why you would detest western people is that women here show more skin/flesh etc than you want to see! In addition, unfortunately, most of the skin is under silicone or treated with Botox or under a lot of make up or all of them! I was a bit taken aback when I first started noticing it, but then I am used to it now. Therefore, I have no complaints…ok fine I will confess! I enjoyed it for a few days but I got sick of seeing it! : P Again, it was your perception, which made you feel disgusted seeing her flank. Some other person may have stood there staring at it until someone shoved him from behind or whacked on his head! Or perhaps some may have just nonchalantly turned away not letting the image register in his/his [no this isn't a typo, because I've noticed one too many times, that if a girl's undergarment[s] is being shown and if the wearer doesn't notice it, a fellow female would tuck it in stealthily under the outer most garment of the wearer immediately as if they were hiding a bomb!] mind! What a person wears intentionally usually reflects his/her personality. Statistics show [?*] 9.99/10 times, a woman is concerned about how much make up/lipstick/gloss/eye liner/eye shadow/eye colour, hair colour, nail polish colour, nail polish thickness, nail polish design, nail polish density, nail polish texture, jewellery, design of the jewellery, {pardon the lack of make-up knowledge} colour of the tiniest precious stone matching the hair clip, oh damn I forgot about hair clip varieties [phew], colour of the stilettos and the salwar-kameez, colour of the beaded necklace and the bangles, the design of the embroidery on the dupatta and the design of the watch, colour of the cell phone and the hand bag,[I’m beginning to wonder where is this heading!] oh and the design of the buckle of the hand bag and the design of the earrings etc she is using! You are entitled to forming opinion[s] about people/places/things etc around you. You also have the right to share it or not with anyone. *Ok now coming to the [not debatable] statistics part of this [productive?] discussion, it is a known fact that, well, this is true! There is no need for any ‘figures’ [only healthy pun intended as to not disgust you with my innuendos!] to prove the above statement. Hope none of the readers presents you with pink polka dot chaddies!Cheers,Vishwas

  31. @IWW:I'm not saying we should always have logic for what we 'feel', but if we use good reasoning, many times (mind you, not always) we're able to make out the reasons for them.But, how my post is different from plain 'liking' or 'not liking' is that I've tried to find reasons for my disgust, and on the basis of what the girl had worn, I've extrapolated to try to conclude what she would be in other spheres of her life. And, when we use the word conclusion, we've to be as sure as possible that we are being logically consistent, doing justice to all the data available to draw conclusion from, and not drawing them because of 'wanting' to draw that conclusion.Yes, of course, liking/not liking your voice would've reasons that'd be very difficult to find out, so it'd be unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to know what makes them like a particular voice. But the most important concern is my not liking your voice must not be the basis to conclude you're a liar.That's why in this post, I've tried to understand if the choice of dress that the girl made is a reasonable basis for my extrapolation other things about her or not.Had my post ended just at 'I don't like seeing skin, that's all!', then it'd have been alright. But what complicates the matter is on that basis, with a long again of reasons/assumptions in between, I've also concluded that 'till I know her personally, I'll not be able to respect her'. Mind you, the last statement does not imply, I'll be impolite with her when I talk. If she turns out to be a good human being, I'll be forced to review my line of reasoning outlined in the post.@John:Welcome to the blog!Regarding allowance 7, if that'd have been the case, the edges of that triangle would have not been well stitched, they'd have been ragged, but that wasn't the case. Also, that'd not explain the peeking strip of her underwear.I think you are not able to digest in, maybe, because you're unaware that such shirts are indeed available in the market. :)The difference between skin color is that one does not have a choice in that matter, but one's dressing is what one chooses. And many spheres of our lives we do judge people on the bases of what they choose, rather than what they are born with, and nobody considers that objectionable…

  32. …But if you're hinting that she was 'born with' a predilection to make those choices, and so I should not judge her, then you'd have a very valid point. In fact, I too have been always curious as to what component of our decisions are entirely under our free will, and what pre-destined because of inherent personality traits we can't change. But honestly, on applying the allowance 8 that people are greatly predisposed to make the choices they make, then our lives would change beyond recognition. We'll never be able to call a murderer guilty because he was 'predisposed' to murder, and hence didn't have a choice. Are we ready yet to apply those standards of judgement?Thanks for bringing in your point of view!

  33. @Rakesh:Yes, you've asked a very pertinent question about distinction between 'wanting' and 'not minding'.Though, I've addressed it in the post itself under a separate heading, I'd still try to clarify.It was a plain pink shirt. About her being well off, well one of her senior from her college is on good terms with me. Hers was a deemed University, which would've required at least 10 to 12 lakh rupees for her to take up that course.Now, I know, you'll point out what if one of the days when she went out for shopping, only that pink shirt was available, and no other plain pink shirt was available that'd would fit her. I'd say, yes, 'it's possible'. But then, 'it's improbable' that plain pink shirts for females would be unavailable. About the college fee thing, you'll point out 'what if she's not really well off, but took a bank loan only to get into MBBS?'. Again, I'd say 'possible'.Regarding cost of dress, I've known kameez with very fine embroidery and borders studded with articles not coming cheap, and not to mention that cheap clothes year down faster and lose their glow after sometimes, especially, if they're not synthetic (which they were not for this girl 'cuz synthetic clothes a peculiar sheen, which hers did not have). But yes, since I'm no Sherlock Holmes, I should not rely my judgement on above bases. Though, all this would still not explain her peeking panty line!So, now I should not conclude any of the things about that girl?But Rakesh, this is not a court case!And, I've made it adequately clear that if I interact with her, and if I find my conclusions unfounded, I'd have to revise my system of drawing conclusions.But let me illustrate what strength of evidence you want from me.Picture this:You're outside a room and just before you open the door, you hear the sound of a gun firing. You open the door and see 'A' holding a gun and 'K' lying on the floor bleeding from the head. You tell me that A shot K to injure/kill him. I ask you if you saw A pulling the trigger? You say 'no, but the gun was fired just before I opened the door, and he had the gun in his hand'.I: Isn't it possible he picked up the gun immediately after someone else shot him?You: But, there was no one in the room!I: What if there were a sniper?You: But I heard him well, "I'm going to kill you bastard!"I: what if he was just joking?You: No but, he sounded angry!…

  34. I: 'sounding' is a subjective interpretation. It's not reliable.You: but in combination, all these evidences very much point to the likelihood that A shot at K.I: but you can't jump to conclusions like that!You: yes, you're right. It is possible that he did not kill K. :(Rakesh, in what all spheres of life have you sought evidence of this strength?In dictionary there are words like 'envy', so maybe such emotions must be real. Likewise, there are words like 'show-off', so even such an intent is very likely to be present. Have you never concluded someone to be jealous of others or trying to indulge in show off? If you didn't, then in your system of thoughts emotions like 'jealousy' and intents like 'showing off' just don't exist. But if you've concluded the same ever, ask yourself had you asked for the same strength of evidence you want me to produce?Can you give me even a single tell tale sign of envy or someone showing that I would not be able to undermine by some or the other 'what if'?Right now, I'm short of time, I'll reply to the other part of your query later. In the meantime, if you feel, what all I've tried to explain and point out is relevant (not just to this post), but also to how we judge others, then you may reflect on it and reply back.Bye for now.TC.

  35. All I can say is-stay away from my hostel!Not that I live in a hostel :DAur yeh kya! Blog ka naksha badal gaya!Analyze on :)My comment looks like an ant in front of all others 😀

  36. Hi Ketan,Nice template you have now.Forgive me if I am offtrack. A bit of statistics. Such an elaborate conclusion after one-off act of flaunting a bit of flesh? Going by your post, atleast 99% of the time she was normally dressed (that is by our [including me] standards).But can we be sure that, earlier, she wasn't keen on other's approval / attention? Did you draw any conclusions before as well? Just curious.I, for one, wouldn't draw such conclusions. In fact, I wouldn't draw any conclusion at all, based on what one wears, which is often a reflection of a person's mood at that point in time, rather than an indication of what that person is in general. And my observation is not restricted to dressing alone.[but, I would certainly laugh out loud, if somebody thought they were inviting attention by doing something, which did not suit them one bit (in my view)[like watching Ttusshar Kcappooer (that must be his name now) flaunting his biceps couple of years back]Cheers

  37. @Rakesh: I might have been unsuccessful in conveying this in the post, but judgements can be of various strengths. Each encounter with anything/any person leaves an impression, so in that sense, you could call it 'judgement'. And I've already explained, if I'd have reasons to revise those conclusions, I would.Coming to why I blog publicly:Good, you asked. Yes, I want people to pay attention to what I write. In fact, I've clearly stated that in my profile. And, I don't use sly methods to bring them to my blog. Also, I'm not nonspecific about who I invite to read a certain posts. I do so only when I'm impressed by their thoughts (which means there's something about them that I value), or if I see they've also thought on the same issue as me. Thus, I love to examine what differences exist in ways people perceive the some thing, and if possible reasons for those differences. But, I don't clamor for praise. Also, while writing I don't think what will make my blog popular. I write where I'd like to know what others 'think' (as in after analyzing and dissecting the issues involved). I don't write posts where I expect the reader to respond in terms of 'good' or 'bad'. There's an exchange of ideas. What I write influences others' ideas (possibly), and definitely, makes me learn more about the world, people and how they think, and adds something to me as a person and changes me, even if subtly.If you feel that's same as wanting to draw attention from just about anyone, where there's no exchange of ideas, and where others determine what one does, then, you have total liberty to think about me what you've suggested. I honestly, won't mind. I'll understand that in your system of thoughts, I'd be a big hypocrite. I'll defend myself not because what you think about me will make a difference to my self-image (honestly, it'll make a bit of difference 'cuz though I've not seen you face-to-face, there are few things that I value about you), but because, the issue you'd raise would be an unanswered question, and to the extent I can answer it, I would, because I love finding answers.The nice car analogy: You've distorted my inductive reasoning. I said, if a person doesn't mind wearing revealing dress in a mess for nonspecific reason, what would prevent them from doing exactly the same thing at their workplace where they'd have something to gain?

  38. …If I've to give an exact analogy involving a car it'd be this: if you buy a costly car to impress random passerbys, you're are also likely to buy a costly phone to impress your office colleagues.Better analogy would be this for what I've tried to imply: if you're not averse to killing mosquitos in your home that do not bite you (no specific purpose; just like how if I've to assume the girl in the post had no purpose behind the choice of her clothes), then you're likely to kill them also in your office, especially if they bite you (purposefully doing the same thing), which corresponds to the girl revealing to gain mileage (having a specific purpose. But by giving the dating-example of your car, you've amplified my analogy to mean that if you can kill a mosquito at home you can kill a fellow human being at your office, which corresponds to girl's sleeping with the boss, something I never implied!Rakesh, the way you've described the prevalence of using sly methods to gain mileage, am I to conclude that just because some or many people do certain things, they become legitimate, and it would be wrong for me to stop respecting them for things I don't find alright?In midst of all this, you might have not realized that I'm not going to harm that girl in any way or misbehave with her. But that's the first impression I formed, and I've tried to lay out the basis for it.Do you in your life not classify people, to keep it very simple, into 'good' or 'bad'?Or maybe 'more of black' and 'more of white'?Have you not concluded that majority of politicians in our country are corrupt? How many have you seen siphon money off yourself?TC.

  39. @Destination Infinity:Yes, you've rightly pointed out the addictiveness of shortcuts in life, but that issue would be raised only if one were to assume that one wearing revealing clothes in a mess, is more likely to do so at their workplace and that too with a specific intent.But I understand, you might be discussing this with the discussion I had with Uncommon sense in mind.I'm not sure if you've considered a bigger reason using sly methods is to get promotions. An organization works towards a particular kind of productivity. When people subliminally appease each other, no production occurs! It becomes a typical nonfunctional bureaucracy!Imagine, if all work done in any institute would be of above nature (viz., seduction, sycophancy, flattery), salaries would be decided through such competitions as 'seduction-seduction', 'flattery-flattery', etc. These things are wrong in the given context of an organization where the purpose of working is productivity. If a wife/girlfriend wants to seduce her husband/boyfriend, I wouldn't have any problems. Likewise, if sales persons indulge in flattery to further the growth of their corporation, I'd not find it wrong because that's what their obligation towards the organization that's paying them to increase profitability is! Though, I'd ridicule in my mind the customer giving into such flattery! ;)What makes all these things wrong to get promotion wrong is that they decrease the organization's profit-making capacity, and also, deprive someone more deserving (actually increasing the profitability) of that promotion.TC.

  40. @Vishwas:You're the only one to have understood the true purpose of my post! :)Yes, when are you sending them to me–pink polka dot chaddis? I completely trust you to find out my address through your contacts with the CBI. ;)I'm not at all doubtful of my right to draw conclusions, but then they've also to be logically consistent.I've to clarify here that whenever I form impressions about a person, it'd be regarding a specific attribute of their persona. If the girl I mentioned in the post goes on to become a great surgeon in the future, I'd totally respect her for that. Also, with greater number of encounters, if I realize that she's actually very confident and doesn't let what others think about her determine her decisions/choices, I'd completely revise my impression of her. Also, I'd be forced to revise my way of drawing conclusions.Thanks for the heads up about Western style of living! Truly, what you've pointed out is something that I'll have to imbibe in my attitude to protect myself against unwanted upsets. But you know, I did not get upset with what that girl had worn; I was merely trying to work out the reasons I felt disgusted, (just like how Newton might have wondered why the Earth attracts the apple, which BTW, is supposedly a myth about Newton!), the only difference being I was studying the thoughts which were in my mind, and not something external.If I were to be surrounded by vain people everywhere, I won't be like tormented. Just that even in those circumstances, I'd disrespect someone for being vain, and respect more someone acting more independently. That's all!BTW, I've seen many nude people.Okay, rest of your post was really enjoyable, and funny. Read it 5 times, already! You should've done that as a separate post, but then you'd have been labeled a misogynist, and someone stereotyping females, making you deserving of pink chaddis with lipstick smudges on them!Thanks, again!TC.

  41. @Srishti:Even if you were to live in a hostel, you should understand, how safe am I for girls, who want to reveal their panty bands and flank, or anything for that matter!Imagine, I'd just feel disgusted (only for the first time at any particular girl), and despise them a bit, and actually take them lightly! I wouldn't molest them, badmouth them, gossip about them, and should they decide to talk to me, I'd do that with decorum! Isn't that great?Though, you might find it ridiculous, reading above comments should benefit you as it'd expose you to a widely disparate views on the same issue, and how people give analogies to explain otherwise difficult concepts.Also, when I've discussed my thoughts in such details, you should try to point out–"Okay Ketan, stop there! You're 'jumping' to a conclusion rather than 'reaching' it", if you disagree with me, which you appear to do, or bring in some additional perspective. In fact, I'd be able to understand some things much better about female psyche, since you're one, and not many females have commented on this post as yet.It'd be interesting to see your comment turn into a cockroach, maybe ;).Remember, criterion for not commenting should not be your not agreeing with me. If we disagree, we'll be able to examine our prejudices and convictions better.TC.

  42. Hi, Sai!No, nothing you discuss with me could be off track! Sorry for sounding partial, but then, that's a fact. So, thanks for your compliment on my template!I want to clarify, yet again, what I call conclusion is just one of the preliminary impressions. The image of her that I possess is very plastic. If I interact with/observe her more, that image of hers in my mind would become firmer–in the same proportion as the 'data' I amass.Before this incident occured, I'd just notice that she didn't talk to any other girls ever. And obviously, that came out as odd, that's the only thing I'd noticed. And just like her, I'd have a vague idea of the pattern of dressing of most of the hosteliites because I'd bump into them at least twice to thrice everyday, for over sixty days by then. And Sai, again I'm not 'sure' of anything in the whole issue. Had I been, it wouldn't have been blogged about.You're right about the mood governing what one wears, but then, before that one buys those clothes with some amount of deliberation. And one of the issues discussed was what factors govern one's choices in matters of clothing. I'll concede, I don't know much about dressing, but maybe, if I feel cheerful, I'll wear something very bright, and if I'm serious/focused, I might wear something simple or with fine motifs. But what kind of mood would make one wear jeans that would show one's panty's band?I too had thought of the statistical angle, that's why, in fact, I'd mentioned it in the first place in the post! :)You've yourself dealt with one such specimen in one of your posts. No, I'm not pointing fingers at you (as in you're not allowing me to draw the same conclusions you did! 🙂 ), just trying to indicate that, I too am not without such encounters. Some acts are such that they don't need to be repeated too often to point something about the nature of a person. If say, you've a friend, who's always respectful of you. But one day, under the influence of alcohol, he says he despises you, and says some unsavory things about you. Here, what would be important is not that statistically, he said those things only once. What's important is that he had those thoughts in his mind. Just that they were latent, and lack of inhibition brought about by alcohol only made him reveal those…

  43. So, if you were to try to gauge what the friend thinks about you, would you disregard what he says under the influence of alcohol only because it was statistically expressed only once?Lol@ T.K. I just hope, you didn't twist your fingers typing that name, just like how I twisted my tongue trying to pronounce it. :PTC.PS: If you're worried about something, this was an extremely trivial event for me, and it took me not more than 10 min to organize my thoughts just after my taking the food on my plate, and that too most of it was while I was eating. All this might seem so complicated because I'd to organize my thoughts and verbalize them and throw them open to widespread (intelligent) scrutiny. 🙂

  44. I was going to read some of the comments but I think I'd rather leave a comment before trying to do that.We all judge and our first initial judgement is usually one thats quick and based a lot up on how a person looks, acts and talks (in a very small interaction). Many times we are wrong in our judgement but many times we are right. And that subconscious evaluation that happens is not just random but drawn from logic or experience etc.And yes I think if people are doing things a certain way, you have ever right to draw your own conclusions but sometimes people are slow and sometimes they are naive and sometimes they are in denial so they don't realize what they are 'communicating' to another person, so most often than not, giving people a little leeway is a good thing for all involved.Back to the exact incident – a lot of our actions are based on more complex reasons than we think. Some people do need attention and it could be either because they like it or because they need it. Her dressing like that to want people to notice her isn't unique to her and also isn't necessarily wrong (we all do things every once in a while to feel important – but in different ways – like saying 'yes' all the time that you mentioned or do some little extra for someone so they can appreciate your effort or being pushy or being a drama queen etc etc etc). At the end of the day it is her right to wear what she likes as long as she doesn't complain about how guys are staring at her etc. While I don't like how some men think women who dress in revealing clothes think they are loose or want their stares and remarks etc, I feel women who really get bothered by such thing but don't try and avoid it happening to be downright stupid. Either wear it and shut up or don't wear it and crib about not being able to wear it…but wearing it and complaining just get on my nerves. In terms of you're 'hypocrisy' – well just cause she wear certain clothes and wants attention doesn't mean that she is seeking more than just attention. So when the owner is saying things about her having a bad character and you defending her doesn't seem like hypocrisy. Can't think of an example but it's like finding the food just about edible but not thinking the cook should be fired for not knowing how to cook. Okay weak one but if I think of something better will post it. PS – no wonder all the comments are so long – too many different issues to discuss even though the post seems to be about just once incident.

  45. Ketan,Great minds think alike! 😛 Oh I have already sent them! They are on their way to your current location! 😛 Yes I sent them through the top guy at CBI [I'm obviously not telling you his name! :P] Yes they are logically consistent.Well, I stopped forming opnion[s]/drawing conclusions about people a while ago. That's because, most of the time, a person may not turn out to be what s/he appears to be. Which makes me a little disappointed and rarely pleasantly surprised. So I decided, unless I spend time with that person, get to know him/her, I won't get judgemental about that person! In my experience, most people just disappoint you in the end. I've faced one too many such disappointments in the past. Having said that, I'd like to reassert the fact that I too rarely let a person's appearance,say, what they are clothed in, let me paint a picture of that person's persona. Because what I've observed from my experience is that there is no definite thumb-rule per se to judge a person. For example, there was this person in my undergraduate class who dressed up in the most ordinary clothes,wore the most ordinary footware,never once went to the mall,never did anything fun but was a very cunning person deep within! And there are those on the other end of the spectrum, who wore the flashiest clothes,had the coolest mobile phones,hung out with the coolest gang in college [Lol!],extremely sauve,highly sophisticated but then were really sweet people! And of course there were those weren't as lucky as the latter but still were sweet people [Yes I'm talking about me!! :P] LolSo I thought to myself, how do I know what the person really is deep within just by looking at his/her clothes/mobile phone/watch/wallet! And I always thought will what a person is inside affect me? But then I was wrong. It does affect me. Because Newton's laws holds good not only for things with energy, but also for humans who have feelings and thoughts and emotions. The law "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" holds good for humans as well. Well almost. We react to things around us. We cannot remain passive however hard we try. I've learnt that. We smile when someone smiles at us. We feel hurt/angry when someone hurts us. We feel happy when someone we like/love express their love and affection toward us. I dig that feeling of frisson which orginates from that pleasant surprise when a person you meet turns out to be very nice. The chances,according to me, of the pleasant surprise occurring are quite high when you meet/approach the person with little or no expectation. For example, I recently joined the University gym to keep myself fit. The first few days were quite boring. So I decided to find out if there were any trainers available to sort of guide me on the best way to use the gym equipment etc. And I took an appointment with the instructor, and I was in for a complete surprise! First of all, it was a small cramped University gym,second, its a University gym and third they charge peanuts! Hey did I mention its a University gym? [:P] Ok so coming back to the pleasant surprise, the trainer not only gave me a clear schedule as to what to work on etc and he's been following up on me! How cool is that! 😛 Hehehe thank you! I know I wish those lip stick smudges end up on my body instead of on the pink chaddies!Cheers,Vishwas

  46. @Deepali:Yes, you're very right about how we instantly judge people on apparently very flimsy grounds. But usually, I ensure that I judge people only on the bases of choices they make, and not on things they can't help–like skin color, height, voice, etc.I can understand someone 'liking' attention, but not sure of the 'needing' part. And even if it is either of the two, I'd not penalize the person in any way 'cuz, it's their liberty, and second, I don't have an authority, but as you've pointed out, I do have a right to draw conclusions on that basis. I'm not sure how many people would be able to find a logical basis for finding someone else picking their nose in public disgusting, but yet a vast majority do find it disgusting. But, one very important thing is–I've just developed an 'impression', and I've expressed it very clearly, it's subject to revision and is not immutable!Also, I don't judge people on just one aspect of their personality. From this incident, I'd conclude the things I've expressed in the post, not necessarily that she'd be cruel, or unhelpful, or uncooperative. Because, what all I know about her (very little), does not yield that kind of information. I've not ruled out at all her possibility of being intelligent, helpful, sympathetic, generous! I've never believed that a person in possession of one weakness can't possess some other virtue!Why I called it my hypocrisy is because when he used the term 'loose character'–it meant certain kind of disrespect, and I was also having certain kind of disrespect for her despite pointing out to my friends how the owner was wrong (I'd not defended her; this incident of the owner calling her 'loose' had come to me as flying gossip, and the whole episode was over by then).Couldn't get the 'food' and 'cook' analogy, but I've to admit the food at our mess is just about edible. :)And one things many readers have not been able to understand is that I've kept the judgement to myself, and it's more of an intuition. But then, intuition is the name we give to those things, which because of our experience, we're able to conclude very fast, because our mind would've learnt over a time to draw correlations. Like–'flame is hot', 'smile means happiness', 'tears mean sadness', etc…

  47. You know, since I've entered a public life (7 years back, since when I'd to start living in a hostel), each time I'd try to make allowance for someone, and be nice with them, rely upon them, my original (not so generous) conclusions about them have come to be precisely true! Of course, I can't expect readers to take my word for it only because of my good track record at judging people, for which again I don't have an objective evidence to support. But what I'm trying to tell is, if I've been able to be pretty successful in drawing correlations, I'm more likely to employ my keen observation of people to judge them faster than others do. Also, I'm not stating that my judgement is perfect–it will indeed get further refined.And what is the consequence of my drawing the conclusions about the girl that I did? Nothing, really!You know, if someone, except for my closest friends were to ask me as to what I think about that girl, my reply would be–"I don't anything about her! I've never even talked to her once!" that trivial is the consequence of my judgement. But yes, if my closest friends would ask me, I'd tell them my impression along with the event that would've prompted the conclusion, so that they'd be free to judge her on their own terms.Your response was very practical, and it impressed and helped me!You may find some of the comments above interesting, and maybe have something to contribute.Thanks!TC.

  48. @Vishwas:Your CBI agent is a perv. He tried all the chaddis himself first that you'd so lovingly sent, the polka dots have now become polka ellipses! :(If you don't mind, please read my reply to Deepali exactly above this. It'll clarify, how I wouldn't draw those conclusions that do not arise from my observation (data).Some people might end up wearing revealing clothes 'cuz they'd actually be clumsy, and not bothered. But then, that also usually reflects in their other aspects of personality–like not taking care of their hair, dressing in hurry, or relatively unclean clothes, etc. For instance, from someone's clothes I'd never conclude they could be potential murderers! But yes, one's clothing just about may give a clue to their method of drawing conclusions! Whether, they dissect issues very finely or draw their conclusions on the spur of the moment.I'll clarify this yes again–the impression I'd formed of her is not a final one. It's a very 'rough draft' kind of image. It's bound to get refined and sharper if there'd be any subsequent encounters.Let's take the example of your friend who used to dress very simply. What's the opposite of 'cunning'? Maybe, 'simpleton'? What would you conclude about a person who doesn't pay much attention to his clothing (because it'd be something else that'd occupy his mind), or wear the kind of footwear that'd be durable–and maybe, comfortable (and maybe, in his system of priorities–something very trivial, on which much money must not be spent)?Think of what's the first things that would come to your mind–'no nonsense' and 'focus'. Now, a no-frills, focused person could be most straightforward, or so focused on what they want that they won't mind being cunning also, and of course, somewhere in between where they try to avoid unnecessary (according to their priority-list, again) distractions and social committments, and try to gather what they want. But what would be constant to such people would be there'd be something extremely self-centered that would engage their attention. Of course, there could be some who'd precisely want others to believe that they're simple! 😛 But the bottomline is I'd never conclude someone wearing minimalistic clothes to be a simpleton! That's the society's perception. And from the way you described the guy, I'm just concerned if you're thinking I'm against consumerism…

  49. …Honestly, whether someone visits a mall or not for me is no basis to conclude anything about a person!Even the girl in question would've not drawn any of my attention if maybe, her shirt would've been just 8 cm lower, and jeans and inch or two higher!Let's take the example of people with coolest mobiles. You'll always find two kinds of people with 'cool' (expensive) mobiles–one who know how to make full use of them, and one not using it any more to just message, talk, and maybe exchange a few videos, songs. I'd conclude that the former category bought it because they needed/desired their phones, but the latter bought it out of peer pressure! Am I making sense? If those wearing flashy, even revealing clothes, are comfortable in their skin, and not trying to steal glances to see if others are noticing them or not, then they wouldn't earn my (trivial amount of) disrespect.Vishwas, I'm from Mumbai, and would just like to point out that though I've not been with the hipest of people, I've had no reasons to develop any aversion to the so called 'westernization'. You'd recall from my post–'communalism', I don't believe in that kind of classification.Okay Vishwas, the next thing you've discussed, I understand is very personal to you, and thanks for considering me worthy of sharing that with. 🙂 It affects us to the degree we start valuing certain people. Also, we tend to be disappointed with ourselves for judging people wrongly in the first place. In fact, everyone, to a different extent try to avoid those very conclusions, because we don't want upheavels in our 'emotional world'That's our emotional inertia. That's why many times we end up trying too hard to defend the acts of those we love, though deep within we'd know that certain (negative) inferences about them would be imminent. We give them 'time' and 'chance' to prove our fears wrong, but invariably, those time and chances are only utilized to hurt us further. This was in response to something not only on your comment here, but also a few of your previous posts, only with the hope it helps you ever so slightly. :)Good, you have the gym instructor–to cheer you about something! And please, write some 'frivolous' posts also. 🙂 Reader(s) like me would be grateful for making them laugh heartily!…

  50. And lastly Vishwas, I see you're not yet free of your wishful preconceptions. Quoting Shakespeare conversely (had he spent more time in a zoological garden, rather than a botanical one), "Smudge made by the lipstick on lips of any animal, would still be called a 'lipstick smudge'! :PThanks!TC.

  51. I know this topic is old and dead but still – (even I don't like unanswered questions) You saw someone in a revealing dress and made a number of assumptions about why was she wearing that dress on that point of time. I explained that I do not agree to those assumptions and you maybe right in saying that normally people do make assumptions based on the information they have. But for me, those assumptions just don't sound concrete enough. I mean, again going back to the same topic, it would be possible that her jeans which fitted her nicely when she bought it, might have become loose as a result of wearing and might have slipped a tad below where she would like it to be and thus the unintentional revealing.Ok so finally you concluded that her revealing was intentional, while I am not sure that we have sufficient reasons to believe so.Based on your assumption, you concluded that if someone does this without a specific reason, he/she is more prone to do this when there is a good reason involved. Again, (assuming that she was intentionally revealing) we aren't sure what was the reason of her revealing that day. Maybe she wanted to impress a particular person she loved and she might not do the same to get promotion in office. What I'm saying is that there are far too many tangents involved in this single act of revelation and I think, I wouldn't conclude a great deal out of it. But yes, I also agree that everybody's conclusion could be different. I may not like your conclusion and neither might you like mine, so lets agree to disagree.Cheers!PS. Read residua last night. Will comment on that post later.

  52. @Rakesh:You're right, and even I know, from the same set of data, two people can draw exactly opposite conclusions.And I've to clarify it yet, yet, yet again that my conclusions were not concrete at all! :)It's not that I was looking for reasons to feel disgusted, and then decided to feel disgusted about it, rather it's the other way round. I got disgusted, and I found my disgust unreasonable to begin with, but on further analysis of data available to me, I found the disgust justified as discussed in the post and the comments. I've added emphasis on 'me' because had you been in the same situation, just maybe, your conclusion might have been closer to mine.I honestly, don't want to get into 'specifics' of the event because it sounds childish for you to point out yet another 'geometrical' possibility, and equally or more childish of me to add one more thing to the 'data'. My post could've been heavier on the 'data' side, but if you read the comments above, no one else has doubted the 'intent' part of hers. And no, I'm not even implying that just because others have not doubted that, you also should not. Maybe others are more impulsive in drawing their conclusions than you (and me), and you're very thorough, or maybe, you feel it's better to err on the 'positive' side of judgement rather than 'negative', meaning you might be reluctant in other areas of life also to draw negative conclusions about others.Most of the debate with other respondents has been about whether such an intent is bad or not, and whether, my other conclusions were justified or not.Coming to the 'geometrical' aspect once more, hopefully, the last once, I personally, find it difficult to believe that someone's jeans could shrink so much that it rides down 5 cm from just below the navel to the point her panty band would become visible more than one cm.Coming to wanting to impress the boyfriend part, again entirely possible. But you know, I'd be further disgusted to conclude her relationship with him was such that she'd require to reveal to the degree she did. Or that it'd become stronger if she revealed to that degree. Let me clarify here that I don't have any problems even if two people want to just have one night stand, meet in a pub, get 'it' done with and forget it. I'll have problems if such an occurrence starts with 'your eyes are so beautiful; I want to drown in them!'…

  53. …Okay, I understand, no one uses such pickup lines at a pub! 😉 but what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't like hypocrisy.I also completely understand that love and lust could coexist–as maybe happens between countless married couples, and girlfriends-boyfriends who're sincere towards each other. And they may want to have sex, so what? Cool, I've no problems with that! But has that anything to do with her panty line and flanks showing? Is her boyfriend going to understand that she's anatomically capable of or inclined to having sex only if she wears that specific dress?And one more thing, she'd not worn a belt (something that greatly increases the chances of jeans' waist riding down, especially, if heavy, as happens with guys), and also she was standing while taking her food (not sitting, which again is a 'predisposing factor' for such occurrence), and nor was her jeans fitting her loosely to have ridden down by its weight. Now do you realize why I did not include such details in the post? This was not a crime scene! I might have been unsuccessful in conveying this, but my impression was very 'preliminary' so to say. And I'm perfectly alright with altering it if I come to know her better. Why should I avoid certain conclusions only because they seem to be negative as long as those conclusions are not going to be the basis for me for any act directed at her!I've seen countless cases of what goes on in the mind of someone wearing dresses like hers. Read this post from another blog here (click, and search for the post for 'balle'). Now, I'm not sexist enough to believe only guys do this and girls, don't! 😉 Plus, living in a hostel provides one with a lot of data to draw quick conclusions about others from trivial things, if one is observant enough, that is.I'll tell you two examples of my impulsive judgements:1. After Sanjay Dutt was convicted by TADA, I'd developed aversion to guys keeping long hair. Also, Bollywood (of those times) had further reinforced that stereotype of guys with long hair being rash, and drunkards, and prone to go down the 'bad' path. More than ten years back, Shaan (the singer) had come up with a song called 'loveology mein first…'. So, his long hair and the crass lyrics of that song made me dislike him tremendously!…

  54. …But once when on the program–'Movers and Shakers', I'd seen him sing 'Tanha dil', being spontaneous, funny and unpretentious, if became my favorite singer, and still is (for other reasons too)! And I struck the 'long hair' criterion off my 'list'! And honestly, when I thought about it, I realized my view was very prejudiced. But that was ten years back, when my thinking and correlation were less evolved and backed-by-experience than they're now.2. I'm a vegetarian, and if you've ever been vegetarian, you'll understand, that for one who's veg, watching someone bite into a chicken holding it with its bone, and seeing white fibers tearing away from that bone can be one of the most disgusting sights to see. And I've been no different. But once I thought about it… 'plants and animals are all made of same carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, just those same atoms assume different shapes–some become plants; some animals'. So, I shouldn't find eating animals disgusting. Only to challenge myself, I tasted nonveg food. But I couldn't get the disgust out of my mind. But nowhere during this course of my self-experiment did I conclude that those eating nonveg are in any way bad human beings! Because there's no psychological correlation between the two! Though, on some grounds I find it wrong to eat nonveg, but discussing that would be irrelevant here.Why I have given you these examples is to illustrate that if I find some reasons for chain of reasoning to go wrong, I do examine it, but in this one aspect, I've not found it to go wrong (up till now)!Rakesh, I'd be very, very, very stupid to not consider the possibilities of someone 'not minding' or simply 'being careless' as against having an intent. It's very easy to make out those who're simply careless/lazy about their dressing, 'cuz that's a general attitude that's seen everyday, and reflects in their other aspects of carrying themselves, too. They usually have an 'unkempt' look, that's not at all easy to miss. I concede, it's most difficult to distinguish between 'not minding' and 'intent'. A cook while cooking may allow flies to sit on your food–here the line between 'not minding' and 'intending' is very thin. In fact, even on wanting he can't make flies sit on your food. But what would make one conclude his complicity in flies sitting on the food? His lack of intent to prevent it.

  55. Now don't apply exactly the same analogy to this girl's example. I understand that even by giving this example I've 'established' intent. Only difference between you and me is I look at 'not minding' as unlikely in context of what she'd been wearing, what others wear here, or an other kind of benefit like comfort (the jeans was of tight fit, hence less likely to be comfortable than a loose fit one), whereas you think it unlikely that someone could wear revealing dress to intentionally draw attention (maybe, because drawing the same conclusion as me would entail the negative conclusions that you would like to avoid drawing for someone you don't know sufficiently). I don't think I can point the reasons behind your and my drawing different conclusions more clearly than this. But the difference between you and me at the end of the event would be that you'd have no idea about how the girl could be, and I would have some idea, which could be correct or incorrect (which I always keep in mind). I'm not saying one should be one way (like you) or other (like me), but that's way you and I respectively are!If you've time, I would request you to read my responses above to Vishwas and Deepali–that'd clarify a few more things.Again, a note on my 'concluding'. I've arrested again and again, the grounds on which I'd drawn the discussed conclusions are very flimsy. And the 'durability' of my impression is in keeping with that fact in mind.The strongest reason for me to be not worried about drawing that conclusion is her not being harmed in any way. If she's actually a person I'd admire, and one instance of her dressing prevents me from making an acquaintance with her, the loss would be mine–I'm aware of these risks when I think this fast.And please don't take the length of my replies as a degree to which I want to 'prove' myself right. I know in this particular case, there's no established standard to compare against for one to be proven more right than the other, and honestly, that isn't my intention. This length of reply is totally owing to your asking very good questions, and my finding it difficult to draw distinction between very subtle issues. And of course, to discuss one's train of thoughts is one of the most difficult things…

  56. …Incidentally, I was going to remind you of 'Residua' when discussing the possibility of her wanting to impress her BF through her dressing to vaguely give you an idea of how I look at 'love'.Now that I've indicated the reasons as why to you and I would draw different conclusions from the same incident, you may not reply further, 'cuz it's adequately clear we both are going to stay the same way for some time to come, and so would our methods of 'processing the data'! 🙂 unless of course, you have an/a insight/conjecture/idea into why we could be different in the said aspect of our personalities, which would be much more interesting to discuss than whatever we've been discussing up till now. 😉 Thanks a lot!TC.

  57. Thanks Mgeek, though I was never doubtful about my right to draw conclusions. The issue was if I was justified in trying to justify my disgust!This was post where I expected the readers to either agree or disagree (much more so 🙂 ), but your "nice post" puzzles me. May I know the reason for your compliment?TC.

  58. you feel it's better to err on the 'positive' side of judgement rather than 'negative', meaning you might be reluctant in other areas of life also to draw negative conclusions about others. (given that information is limited and my conclusion – positive or negative, doesn't make any difference in what I do)I think this might be closest to what I think of this topic right now.Also given the fact that, I know the girl from a one off mention of her in a blog post while you know her more so, could have a bearing on why we are drawing different conclusions.

  59. Ketan,Haha I am sorry about that! I will have another one sent to you! : P He sure must be a fat bloke for the dots to turn into ellipses! LolYes, I read Deepali’s and your reply to hers. I found Deepali’s response good, in the sense that she put across her view in a very clear and concise manner. Moreover, I need not say this repeatedly, your response was perfect! : P Oh and yes, it did clarify your point! My point was, in my friend’s example, that what one wears does not necessarily reflect what a person really is. ‘Simpleton’ may not be the opposite of ‘cunning’. Nevertheless, on the outside, a simple sense of dressing need not reflect a simple/honest/sincere personality. What I wanted to say was, though he dressed up in ordinary clothes; there was an aura of cunningness so to speak! Of course at certain times he did display a side to him which made me understand that he too had a sense of simplicity [occasionally]. I would normally not pay much attention to what a person is wearing. But honestly, if I knew a person well enough, who didn’t pay enough attention [intentionally or unintentionally] to his appearance, then I would [and I have on several occasions] point it out nonchalantly that it would be much nicer if he did pay attention [either bring to his notice or make him understand that intentionally ignoring a sense of dressing is a bit of a turn off for the birds!] LolWell, that friend of mine actually happens to be a very intelligent person! Lol He is very intelligent and very cunning at the same time! 😛 Ha ha ha no there is no need for you to be concerned, I do not spend much time thinking what someone is against or not! In fact, all I’m thinking of is when I’m going to say “Good riddance” to my fellow Indians holed up here, there and everywhere! Lol Oh this reminds me I can come up with a brand new intra-racism [I coined the word on the way back from University which means that when a person is ill-treated/attacked/irritated/annoyed by fellow countrymen! ] related topic because one of my fellow countryman has thrown away the remaining half a bottle of soy sauce and I couldn’t prepare yummy [?] chicken noodles just because yesterday I asked him to do his dishes in the kitchen so he took revenge and today I ended up eating bland chicken noodles with a lot of salt and pepper to compensate for the lack of soya sauce! Lol and, the important thing is, I KNOW for sure, it was this particular [not so] gentleman because…well…it’s too complicated to explain their attitude, behaviour but I’m sure! Lol

  60. My point was, society generally accepts a person who does normal things, well, normally! Nevertheless, it will not reject a person who does not do normal stuff at the same time. Not going to the mall is not anti-social behaviour! Again, not going to the mall does not mean he is an angel! It just reflects perhaps his lack of interest or lack of time or need. One thing, which I forgot to mention in my earlier comment, was I meant you hating western people as a joke because you felt disgusted at seeing that girl’s flank! So I meant imagine seeing that and hell of lot more day in and day out! 😛 Pardon the poor sense of humour, its my forte! 😀 Yes, Mumbai birds are gorgeous! 😀 Lucky you! Oh damn I forgot, you don’t savour them! :PTrue, so true. Spot on. I have been in that very situation, just as you have described. I’ve tried too hard to defend someone I loved so much but didn’t think with my head and gave them ample time and opportunities to prove my fears wrong but, as you’ve so poignantly pointed out, were instead, sadly used to hurt me further! I sincerely thank you for those words. I really appreciate it! Well yeah, I look forward to going to the gym everyday just to be at peace [and build muscle and leer at gorgeous birds working that hot bod! 😛 ]and feel far away from all the bickering and bitching I am forced to endure! Oh sure, I have a few things on my mind. I am heading back to India this Thursday; I feel I will be able to pack a punch, hopefully, in the hate-filled, deep, dark, wicked, sick truth about my fellow compatriots when I go back, settle down, eat tons of mom cooked food and not worry about anyone throwing away my soy sauce or my ketchup! Lol Here is a sort of clue, you might laugh a bit! 😛 Thanks,Vishwas

  61. @Vishwas:Okay, let's forget the pink chaddis! I don't like pink color much, anyway!I'd used 'simpleton' more is sense of 'naive' and/or 'gullible', which would be opposite of 'cunning', maybe.LOL, then I'm one of the guys who doesn't pay much attention to his dressing. I don't know why, but maybe, 'cuz I'm lazy. Or maybe in a through a process of thinking that's very lateral, that those who're put off by my (lack) of sense of dressing would be effectively 'filtered out', so that eventually, those (yes, both the genders) who end up drawn to me would be people who notice (and value) things other than mere appearance. 'Mere' in appearance, because, beyond a few things like clothing, and overall physique, nothing in one's appearance is volitional. If I want to be 6' tall, I can't be! If I want complexion of Leonardo de Caprio, I can't! And there are many cunning things that I try on people to filter them out 😉 Most of it is self-depreciating humor, but the response to it tells me a lot about them. Also, what kind of humor certain people respond to has a lot to tell about them. Okay, I'll end here about my filtration techniques–it's quite complex! Even I'll have to analyze it one of these days, and most definitely, not blog about it!That he threw your soy sauce was his revenge, or that he threw it on someone was his revenge? :PRegarding your confidence, there's nothing wrong with it.If circumstances allow such an act, and if there's a motive you could think of, and if you see a pattern of behavior, then quite possibly he'd have done that. You're the best judge of your situation.If you actually believe your sense of humor is poor, then I can only say, your taste in matters of humor is bad. 😛 I'm actually looking forward to humorous posts from you (not adulterated by anger, though, which would make things sarcastic, and force the reader to 'think'), which would be pure insanity. :)You're returning to India for good, or only on a vacation?Word limit for commenting–LOL…

  62. …But, on a serious note, there's the biggest allowance that I'd made for her–if our choices are entirely our own. I'm referring to the issue of free will. I've done a post on that–'Free will'. It's the very first (chronologically) post on this blog. If you don't mind reading something technical–involving a bit of quantum mechanics, do go through that post. Also, before that you'll have to look up 'action potential' and 'synapse' on Wikipedia.But if I make this exception for her, I'll have to make it for every other human, and I'd be living my life like watching a bland movie with everyone's urges, decisions and responses based on an undecoded script (screenplay). In a certain way, I lead my life on that level too–watching my and everyone else's life like a movie–with nothing at stake.Thanks! Happy journey!TC.

  63. Hi Ketanthe basic thing is.. you dedicated this really long.. almost epic post to her 50 Sq cm exposed area and it has generated such a lively disscsn… i guess the whole thing served its purpose 😀 he he..more than anything, what i found interesting about the post is that uhave mentioned my fav writer (Ayn Rand) in your label for this post but i dont find any direct reference to her in it.. (forgive me if i missed it)…i m curious…

  64. Hello Chhaya, and welcome to the blog!If you found this post epic-sized than, don't know what you'd call some other posts of mine. I think, except for 55ers and a few other short posts I've written, this is the average length of my posts.Well, the purpose of most of my posts is to generate intelligent discussion, to let others know of my ideas and learn something from others (preferably intelligent people). So yes, in that sense, this post has served its purpose in that if some people hear someone point out how someone's dressing would disgust them, they won't think of it immediately as regressive and narrow-minded.Another reason the post spewed such lengthy debate was the far-fetched speculations I entertained on the basis of 50 squared cm skin, and an elastic band.In my observation and opinion, people wrongfully believe, that it's only grosser acts that should invite our attention and make us draw conclusions. I'd for instance believe, if a person indulges in corruption being the 'cultural secretary' of their college, they won't mind indulging in it even being the Prime Minister of the country! So, it's this kind of extrapolation that has shocked the readers.Ayn Rand's two novels that I've read ('The Fountainhead' and 'Atlas Shrugged') stand for one thing–two live for oneself, on one's own terms and not to please, appease, cajole others. My disgust at the dressing of the said girl in this aspect stems from conjectural reasoning that by dressing that way she wanted to draw others' attention, which amounts to at least letting others' desires determine her manner of dressing. Hope this clarifies reference to Ayn Rand.Thanks for your contribution!Take care.

  65. OK. You want the female perspective, and sice you're INSISTING [:P] so much, here goes:I don't particularly agree with you. Because, from my interpretation, I feel that you've 'jumped' to this conclusion:You think she's trying to gain attention by exposing her flank.See, let me tell you how the female mind works. :DThere could be a million reasons why she wore that shirt other than the attention reason. There are actually so many that I can't possibly write all of them down, but I'll tell you a few.The first one, which is the most likely one goes like this:Sometimes, when I have a cold, or I'm depressed or I'm lonely or I'm not good, whatever, I put on my best cloths or the cloths which make me FEEL good or sexy or whatever. You're a guy so you won't understand but cloths are excellent mood changers. They can lift your spirit instantly.So maybe she was feeling sad or depressed about something, so maybe she just needed a change, ANY kind of change-so she wore something she has never worn before. That exposed her flank. BIG DEAL. Maybe wearing that piece of clothing somehow made her feel good about herself.

  66. Second. Maybe she wanted to see how people reacted to this sudden change. Maybe she wants to study people on how they react to clothing or whatever. I've decided, that when I'm a little older, I'll do this experiment kinda thingy where one day I'll dress up and look like the geekiest person ever and walk into a mall. And note the reaction.The nxt day, I'll look like the hottest thing ever (I'll try my best) and walk into a mall. And note the reaction.Then compare.So maybe all this while you've been studying, analyzing her action, maybe she's been analyzing yours. Who knows? Anything's possible.Btw, you're allowed to laugh if you want to. Many of my theories are whacky.Maybe she did it on a dare. You say she was always quite well dressed, even conservative, so maybe it was a dare. Maybe someone dared her to 'expose' and she did. I realize that you all are respectable twenty something doctors and you all dont play Truth and Dare like a bunch of high school kids but how do you know it wasn't a dare?Maybe whatever she was wearing, the jeans or skirt, only went with that flank-exposing shirt? And she really wanted to try out that new jeans or skirt. We girls are really touchy about being matching-matching(!), so maybe it was just that.

  67. Maybe she really likes this actress and she saw her wearing the same shirt and she went ahead and bought that. And while she realizes that it isn't really her regular wardrobe, but she really wanted to try it.I'd do it.Maybe she traded shirts with one of her friends just for fun. Just like that. People do that. After all, you did mention that she normally doesnt wear those kind of cloths.Maybe it was a gift from some friend or family and while she didn't particularly like that shirt, she's still wearing it so as to not hurt their feelings even though they cant see her. But when they aske her "Did you wear that shirt I gave you?" she can say without lying that she did.I do it ALL THE TIME.Maybe she was rebelling against some sort of dressing norm that someone, her mother maybe, imposed on her. Maybe her mom said "Dont wear these kind of clothes" and she wore EXACTLY those kind of clothes to show that she does not appreciate being told what to do.

  68. I do that all the time too. Teachers tell me not to eat in class but I always do.There are many more reasons but I seriously am tired now, I've responded to some really long e-mails today too. So I really hope that I changed your opinion just a little bit.And I know that all I'm doing is defending the girl, and who knows, maybe she wore it to gain attention. How would I know?Whatever my theories are, thats my view…something that I think could be possible. And I know many people would be laughing at my kiddish, airhead sorta comments but really, thats what I think. Anything's possible. So I'll get ready to my team ready for the debate which I'm sure would be a long one :DSo fire away sire 😉

  69. Hello Srishti!Thanks for your elaborate response!Of course, I've arrived the conclusion on very flimsy grounds, which you could call 'jumping' and the strength of my conviction in my judgement is very less. :)I've arrived at the conclusion because of highest probability of reasons based on my experience and context of the event.So, I'm not at all claiming that one won't be able to come up with alternate possible explanations for her dressing that way. But would any of them be as or more likely and fitting the circumstances of the girl than my 'chain of reasoning'?1. To feel good. Possible. Is feeling 'sexy' not dependent on how others view the one trying to feel sexy? I don't understand how is it different from wanting others to look at her. And yet, though, there's no weightage in an argument to 'my feeling', I feel this is much less likely than reasons I pointed out.2. Studying people's reactions. Again, how's this different from living on terms of observers? Isn't there a difference between actually being the geekiest person around and just looking like that? And aren't you yourself pandering to certain kinds of stereotypes that 'this is how geeky people dress'? Then, wouldn't it also strengthen the stereotype that 'this is how people clamoring for attention dress'?3. Truth and dare. I know the guys in her group. Extremely unlikely.4. Fashion sense that I can't understand. The shirt was pink. Jeans, blue.Nothing to match here in terms of color at least. And that wouldn't still account for exposing the panty band. But yes, my fashion sense sucks. And just because many people would indulge in this kind of compulsive fashion wouldn't make it any more respectable in my eyes. Like many people spit on the road, but that won't make it any more respectable. I'd still respect more someone who doesn't spit as compared to one who does. 🙂5. Mimicking someone. equally bad or worse in terms of having an independent thinking (and existence).6. Trading. Whether one trades something or buys something with deliberation, there's still a matter of conscious volitional choice. How does it make any difference to factors governing what I would like to wear?7. Someone's gift. Maybe, the most plausible of all your possibilities. But I don't know the probability of grownups someone gifting something much more revealing than what one regularly wears. :)…

  70. …But to give a more extreme example, I won't eat sweets that could cause me food poisoning if they'd be stale. Of course, this is an extreme example only to clarify how if one doesn't want to wear something they won't wear it. But if she wouldn't mind wearing it, yes, I concede it's a possibility.8. Rebelling. is another good possible explanation, and I myself remember till 9th class, my mood would be spoilt if my parents would ask me to study, and I'd end up not studying even if I'd have decided just 2 min back to study. So, I'd feel like not studying to 'prove a point'. But one fine day I realized, if I decide upon certain things only to oppose my parents, my life is still governed exactly by what they say! I'd be conceding my free will to opposing what they say! My dad wanted me to become an electronics engineer, and not a doctor. Imagine, what would've happened had I become a doctor only to oppose my parents! Or to again give a very extreme example, my parents tell me to "not become a drug peddler", and I precisely become one to 'prove a point'!Here, you'll point out why my parents would ask me to not become a drug peddler out of the blue, unless and until I'd express a desire to be one! And precisely, even if her mom would ask her to not wear that dress, it could be only because she'd have expressed the desire to wear it! Unfortunately, by this line of argument you'd end up proving more firmly that she'd worn precisely what she wanted to wear!But moreover, for someone going to treat patients in critical condition, this kind of personality trait, despite being in one's twenties would earn her much greater disrespect from me. :(And Srishti, I'd like you to read the above arguments especially coming from Deepali, Vishwas and Rakesh above, and my responses to them. That'll clarify many things about my thinking in this matter, and more important, make it clear to you, why my impression of the girls is very very malleable, and I could come to admire her with more encounters. Remember, even I'd found my impression of her unjustified in the first place. For me, personally, there's nothing 'wrong'/'right' in this argument, since a lot depends on one's instinctive judgement, which in turn depends a lot on one's life experiences. I've never stated that my arguments are dead right. Quite to the contrary, I've based them on probability. And do distinguish between probability and mere 'non-zero possibility'…

  71. Wow, that is one long post! If the girl u wrote abt were to read it, she wouldn't know whether to be mad at u, or feel complimented by such a long dedication! :PI can't say whether u deserve a pink chaddi or not, but really, with dressing styles changing, rather, disappearing, I'd say u shud b thankful she was wearing even that… Some of the girls, and I'm saying young, teenagers, roam around on the streets of Delhi (apparently very unsafe for girls) in a pair of shorts and tops with plunging necklines. Yes some look completely horrendous, because mostly they wear it coz its "in" even if they cant carry them off. I really don't knw d logic behind this eccentric dressing, but I wud only say, to each, his own – in this case, her own. Sooner or later, hopefully these girls will realize looking good doesn't essentially mean revealing.

  72. Well, alright I admit that my reasons weren't very probable…anything's possible, but not really probable.Alright.But still.So maybe the 'feeling good' reason defies logic…but really its totally true, you can try it. Go on. See, wear your worst clothes and then wear the best. You'll see how your mood changes.The observing reason, maybe I'm stereotyping. But won't your first impression of a person depend on their dressing sense, body language and expression?Mine would. What you're wearing plays a huge part in reflecting your personality. If I were a jock kinda guy, and a skinny, sweater vest wearing guy and a muscular jersey wearing guy would pass me, I'd be more inclined to talk to the jersey guy…because from what he's wearing, I'd have a rough idea of him.

  73. And the gift reason…maybe her little sister did. Or a younger friend, who was a little on the wild side.Her craving attention is an equally valid reason…except, can I just say something?Why does it matter? So you saw some skin, were repulsed. But was this all really needed? I know that everyone has a right to form opinions and all, and I totally respect your views. And I know that if people didn't think about things, we wouldn't be anywhere.Where would we have been if Einstein didn't think about the falling apple and all?But I just think you complicate a little. More than they are. Complicated, I mean.Yeah, I'll read the comments. If I dont fall asleep in between that is. :PAnd haan haan, thanks for valuing my response and all. Pleasure 🙂

  74. You know, I've actually seen more guys than girls exposing panty strips, guys can very careless about the way they dress, and no one will ever think ill of them anyway, especially not girls, most of whom will simply point and giggle so..and frankly, I've never been disgusted or repulsed simply by the way someone dresses. Words and actions tend to be more disgusting than mere dress.I have a cousin who was born in Miami where women wear bikinis to shopping malls and no one finds it attracts attention..its become really routine to them, altho' the very idea sounds shocking to me.I'm sure what you felt was a very visceral reaction and nothing to do with your morality so much as to do with the way we are conditioned to look upon the world by our environment. We internalise all those influences, dont we?Same reason why I find Brad Pitt really sexy but I wud never, ever consider he'd make a good husband for me.I actually love the way Uncommon Sense put it way up there..another man may find it sexy and a sign of confidence and be attracted to her. But then, I think what you felt makes me lament our collective "morality" more than any one individual's "immorality".Are we worse than those men out there in Miami who never consider diminishing their respect for women proportionate to the diminishing area of their clothing..Maybe. But then, who can say what is right and what is not? Only you can decide.But if you've thought so much about it, I'm sure, there was a large part of you that didnt like that visceral reaction so much nor did it appreciate the jumping to conclusions. And I'm grateful that part exists in some people atleast.

  75. @Ketan,Alright let’s put the chaddis away! 😛 In my opinion, as long as you do not wear shabby, dirty clothes, then that is fine by me. However, intentionally/unintentionally wearing weird combination of say dhotis and boots and tight tees are a big no no and I will call the fashion police to have you under arrest! 😛 But a simple tee with say a neatly pressed trousers is not harmful for the eye! 😛 I hope you get the drift! Oh and yes, you are right; the reason why I still take the trouble to follow each post of yours and comment and follow up on the comments is that I ignored your receding hairline, round geeky jaw line [pun intended], and instead focussed on your awesome posts! 😛 Yes I too wish I could be 6 feet tall but my complexion is pretty close to Di caprio’s so no complaints on the complexion front! 😛 Lol Yes, it was an act of revenge! As I said in my previous post, I shall come up with a post on something that I want to blog about! I know exactly the motive and pattern of behaviour! Oh actually my taste in matters of humour is not actually bad, it sucks! :PI’m in India on a vacation for about a little over a month! Sorry for the delay in responding! Cheers,Vishwas

  76. Hello Mirage!Welcome to the blog and thanks for your comment!See, how you've written so spontaneoulsly that 'they wear it coz it's "in"'! No personally, I don't have any problems with that conclusion of yours, just that many people expect others to come up with 'evidence' for such conclusions. And it's merely an attempt to try to 'prove' her intent to draw attention that has made the post and the comments following it so long."to each, her own"Again, I've never disputed that. Rather, have stated it emphatically that I'll never try to impose my views on her, and rather, behave with her courteously. What prompted this post, was probably this widely prevalent feeling that holding those wearing revealing clothes in contempt is regressive and narrow-minded. But, I've just tried to give my reasons (as logical as possible) as to why I might hold those who deliberately wear revealing dresses to draw attention, or do other such things in contempt, which is not to mean I'd hate them, just that I'd prefer not to interact with them.Take care.

  77. Hello Mirage!Welcome to the blog and thanks for your comment!See, how you've written so spontaneoulsly that 'they wear it coz it's "in"'! No personally, I don't have any problems with that conclusion of yours, just that many people expect others to come up with 'evidence' for such conclusions. And it's merely an attempt to try to 'prove' her intent to draw attention that has made the post and the comments following it so long."to each, her own"Again, I've never disputed that. Rather, have stated it emphatically that I'll never try to impose my views on her, and rather, behave with her courteously. What prompted this post, was probably this widely prevalent feeling that holding those wearing revealing clothes in contempt is regressive and narrow-minded. But, I've just tried to give my reasons (as logical as possible) as to why I might hold those who deliberately wear revealing dresses to draw attention, or do other such things in contempt, which is not to mean I'd hate them, just that I'd prefer not to interact with them.Take care.

  78. Hello Srishti!Actually, I've not been finding much time to respond to comments, so henceforth, most of my comments would be very brief."But won't your first impression of a person depend on their dressing sense, body language and expression?"Isn't my entire post about such 'first impression' based on a person's dressing? 🙂 In fact, also her expressions/body language (i.e., anxious to know how many people/guys were looking/ogling at her), but I didn't include that aspect because such a subjective judgement on my part won't be accepted by the readers. But, I believe, after spending so much time among people, I can trust my judgement enough to know if certain people are 'comfortable in their skin' or 'feeling conscious' of what they'd be wearing. She wasn't exactly comfortable.Allowance about gift Did you apply the food poisoning analogy of my prior comment to this situation?And, I actually valued your response. First, because as I mentioned, you've brought new perspectives to my way of looking at things. And second, I'm learning as well as teaching you to argue. Argue–as in not to win, but to try to arrive at most probable truth when the data available would be very insufficient.Srishti, I've gone through each and every post of your blog, and believe me, you might have not encountered too many varieties of people. People change a lot, as they grow out of their adolescence.And believe me, you'll find too many compelling situations where you'd be required to judge people on their much more significant qualities like faithfulness, genuinety, tendency to be jealous, intelligence, steadiness of thinking (think of someone getting easily 'bored' with their GF/BF), originality of ideas, courage in times of stress, compassion, etc. And these things can't be judged even after spending a year with them. You know, why? Because grown up people (including me) are very careful of their conduct in 'critical' situations, but they drop their 'guard' in 'trivial' ones. And the skill of judging people is when their guards are 'down'. Especially, how they deal with people they think they don't 'need'. I know this might sound cunning, but having lived in a hostel for many years and with heart-breaks in many relations (both genders), I've been perfecting my skill of understanding people better and faster. But that improvement, of course, is ongoing. 🙂 TC.

  79. Hi TUIB!Nice to get your comment, especially on this post! ;)Please don't take this post as a female v/s male issue. I've felt equal disgust seeing guys with their underwear's label peeking. Also, it's not that I saw for the first time a lady 'deliberately' wearing revealing clothes to 'draw attention'. Just that incidentally, this once, it made me think! Quite possibly because I'd nothing better to do [hint, hint: the mess food here is unpalatable in the same proportion as the attention one pays to its taste 😉 ].Yes, I too would be much more confident in drawing conclusions if I would have some 'words' and 'actions' to assess. But somewhat, I've considered the 'choice' one makes in matter of dressing also as a kind of action. Everytime one has more than one options (to betray/not betray a friend, for instance), the decision that's finally reached at is a 'choice'. Well, that's how I look at it. :)TUIB, you also know, I've no problems seeing 'skin' being a medico! That's in response to your Miami example. That's why I've precisely mentioned in the post, the issue of her dressing being way out of the ordinary for what's worn while studying/eating in the mess!Yes, you're very right that my initial response was very instinctive, but that was not because of cultural coditioning. I find nothing wrong with someone enjoying rock music, for instance. Also, if you'll read my comments, I don't think at all about those who're actually very callous about dressing and end up revealing skin.The issue is with those who do it quite deliberately to attract attention to 'feel worthy' on account of that attention.Yes I repeat, the only reason for such an elaborate post was 'cuz I found my initial response illogical! And it's not at all a gender-issue. The issue is much larger. That of living one's life to impress others and considering oneself proportionately 'worthy' v/s living life of one's own terms. Just that ordinarily, people take dressing decisions (and so many other things) as too trivial to be reflective of this trait. :)I don't understand this concept of courage/confidence where it doesn't serve a tangible purpose. I'd consider it a pathetic case of craving attention if someone jumps from fourth floor to set a record v/s someone doing so to save their/someone else's life. :)You can trust me to be as thorough as possible in most of my analyses. And then, anyway feedback I get only makes it more so. 🙂 Thanks! TC.

  80. Hi TUIB!Your comment proved to be very lucky for me. For so many days, my gprs hadn't been working at the hostel where I stay, and today it started working.I think why I responded to that girl in that particular way could be better understood if you read this (click) post.Also, you didn't respond to my comment above. Hope, if any misunderstanding you had about my post has been clarified by now. Also, did you read my response to uncommon sense to his point about kind of people the girl would've liked to attract?Going over you your blog! 🙂 TC.

  81. Hey Ketan! 🙂 I'm glad for that..I see the luck seldom works for me tho' I always get the worst examiners in the vivas..;)I read ur post..very interesting, I must say.I personally think the way u reacted says more about u than it does about anything else.My point earlier, with my brother's glorious Miami example was, that there are places where women show skin for the very obvious reason of attracting attention but maybe people are so used to it now, that paradoxically, it doesnt really seem to affect them at all.And also, let me warn you..I seek to attract attention, too..albeit in a very different manner..I prefer to write to attract people to my ideas..:) I see nothing wrong with the woman's behaviour.But let me tell you one thing I noticed about you. Your reaction was instinctive and instantaneous. After spending all this time analysing it, you understand why it was so. And if u have no problem with seeing 'skin' shown without ulterior motive..that means ur unconscious mind hates attention-seekers too..obviously becoz u wudnt have put up all these arguments to urself in the span of a millisecond, right? :)I did read the response u gave to uncommon sense, but then again I considered it not mentioning, becoz again, it says more about u than anything else. :)This was all very interesting. Thank you for all the intellectual stimulation. 😀

  82. TUIB,I'm glad you've brought the issue to where it rightly belongs–my mind, not society or the length of her dress, or various statistical possibilities of her doing it casually.At various points in my comments above, I've made certain clarifications, and they might be pertinent here:1. There's an issue of attracting attention. Though, I've not made the distinction very clearly in my post or in my comments what I hate is not seeking attention. But I hate it when:a. done dishonestly, as in, in a sly manner, rather than directly. 'Sly' is different from 'subtle'. The former is under the pretext of doing 'something else'. As in the example of this girl, eating her food, studying, talking to friends, but all the while also thinking (or maybe, only thinking), if others are noticing how boldly dressed she is. 'Subtlety' involves drawing inviting in such a manner that it doesn't become obligatory on the 'invitee' to pay that attention, but only intimates them of the desire of their attention. And also, subtlety usually involves a certain degree of ingenuity. b. that attention is drawn indiscriminately from just about anyone. I, for instance, ask you to read certain posts of mine only because in my interactions with you, I've come to value your intellect, analytical power, honesty and manner of expression.Thus, I seek appreciation from only those who I value (and not the converse, as in I value only those who praise me 😉 ). At this point if you ask me what's so great about seeking approval from a select class as against from the 'masses'? Or if, why should quality (who values me) matter more than quantity (how many value me), I'd have no real answers! I can come up with artificial reasoning like it's the 'quality that's more effective than quantity' or some such crap, but the fact would be that's just my prejudice. Because of some reasons (I've not explored completely), that's how my value-system has got shaped.2. "ur unconscious mind hates attention-seekers too"–TUIB, this post is only about my having attention-seekers, and nothing else! But I hate the act of seeking attention in context of other 'riders' that go with it (explained above in this comment itself as well as in what follows)….

  83. …For a change, it required me more than 5 min to explore and organize all those thoughts! Yes, the hatred was quite instantaneous, but a response that I quite habitually give to all acts of seeking indiscriminate attention. Just that I decided to think about it this once.3. "I seek to attract attention". TUIB, you've to judge for yourself if you attract attention from just about anyone or from those who you value for some reasons. Second, do you desire that attention for something you 'do' or something you're endowed with 'naturally' (without your conscious choice and effort)? Third, would you do that in a sly fashion–an example from blogosphere would be to want praise for your blog/language/intelligence (sincere praise as well as insincere) by blogging about ideas that just don't matter to you on pretext of raising awareness on 'social issues'? If you'd actually do it, your act would earn my contempt (sic). But that would not leave out the possibility that I'd actually admire your skill at articulation. Just that I'd start valuing it much less than below–quite similar to not valuing much style against substance. Of course, the issue for you would be whether to stop attracting attention in aforementioned ways as that would make me (someone you might value) look down upon you, or actually realize your folly and stop being that way, or use your right of volition to continue to use your right to expression the way you 'choose'.Lastly TUIB, just because I write such posts doesn't mean I've never fallen in trap of populism. I too might have in the past, I might in the future, too. But at least, each time in the past, I've tried to be honest enough with myself, and the contempt I would develop for myself (click) would be my punishment, which if you can understand, is the worst one could inflict on oneself.4. Lastly, there's a very subtle issue of chronology, viz., the desire to act in a certain way preceding or succeeding the desire for that act to be praised. 🙂 I hope you get the drift. If we're dishonest, we can always argue for the former before others, but can we really fool ourselves? 😉 (I wish I could 😦 )Thanks for taking this discussion several notches higher, i.e., into the depths of axiom-like prejudices of our (my) minds!TC.

  84. Ketan,I am praying I didn't cross any line when I replied to your comment!! If I have, then I sincerely apologize for it! Hope you accept my apologies! Cheers,Vishwas

  85. Hey Vishwas, there was nothing in what you said that offended me, truly. If I've been so introspective of life, on the whole, my receding (nonexistent?) hairline is a truth I've come to accept quite wholly. I don't mind if someone points to that. But if someone considers me a lesser human on that account, I'd honestly pity them for not knowing the ephemeral nature of hairlines! 😉 And of course, also pity them for not getting to drown to death in the sea of my wisdom! :PActually, my gprs had not been working at my hostel, and was replying only to those comments that needed 'urgent' responding. Your comment had not qualified for that only because our conversation had become less and less relevant to this post, which is something I don't mind, but *had* to counter more serious allegations than that of my posts being "awesome" as alleged by you! 😉 Thanks!Also, this period allowed me to concentrate real hard on studies in my attempt to become less dark a medical sheep! :)I'd be going slow on blogging, anyway, though.Happy vacationing!TC.

  86. KetanPhew. That was such a relief! I eagerly replied to the comment when I got back home and patiently waited for a while only to find out you were replying to others but not me! It made me feel so bad you know..I almost wanted to end my miseries..[God don’t I sound like Karan Johar? Lol] Anyway just kidding! Yes yes glad for me I drowned in the sea of your wisdom the very first time I read your blog! Lol Oh please don’t deny the fact that your hairline is indeed receding. But gracefully and wisely of course! Lol Lucky you actually, my hair is thinning right on the top of my head! Lol How I wish my hairline too receded gracefully like yours! Lol Ok I’ll stop rubbing it in before you curse my already thinning hair! I understand now why you replied to others and not me! Lol Yes they are awesome and I stand by what I said! Good you should perhaps concentrate on your academics instead! 😛 Meanwhile, I’m still chalking out the boundary of my next post! I’m suddenly finding myself extremely sarcastic and insinuating! Somehow, I do not end up insulting or hurting anyone! So I’m working on those lines. So do keep an eye on my blog! 😛 LolHappy cramming!Cheers,Vishwas

  87. Thank you, Ketan for those thoughts. Your comments always give me reason to think further.It actually made me want to list the reasons I even write a blog:1) To seek encouragement, advice, criticism, help with my own writing.2) To find like-minded people or people from whom I can learn something so I can implement it myself.3) To improve my thinking processes and refine my words and language so it becomes acceptable and interesting for others.4) I cant restrain my writing, if I do I feel stifled. Writing in a blog just feels better becoz it gives me perspective and release.I think we all do it to attract attention to ourselves (here, I mean attention as in notice from people, nothing more). Otherwise, there is no point writing in a space that others can access which is why I beg my best friend to make his blog public. :)This post really gave me lots to think about in general. Thank you. :)Oh btw, I'm emailing you, so look out for my email.

  88. Arrey Vishwasji, you can take even greater liberties than that. I absolutely don't mind!I've never denied the fact that my hairline is receding! Why would I put that pic otherwise! If you don't mind and are on Orkut, you could add me from my profile (click). If that doesn't work, simply search for 'Ketan feels', and go to the first result. There, you can find the most updated status of my hairline! Also, you'll find pics of times when my hairline had been in a more desirable position, of course, with better hair density.But I can see, you're very likely to say, "I'm not into networking sites; am not on Orkut, but am on facebook!". :PYes, looking forward to more posts from you, but again, without anger, but pure insanity.Let me give you some food for thought [take your pick–dosa, chicken, samosa, or whatever you want!].Can we roughly define 'hatred' as a feeling where you want the person you hate to stop existing? Instantaneously? The manner in which you might want them to 'stop existing' would be not hatred, but vengeance. Would the best way to hate someone not be to have nothing to do with them? Wouldn't they be so lowly that they won't deserve any of your emotions? So, when you hate certain people, and keep on thinking about them (even in their absence–when you're out of their sphere of influence) by way of hating them, are you not actually making them a part of you life?The best way to hate people is to have so much contempt for them that you wouldn't like to waste even a single thought, single emotion, shingle moment on them! Sic.Think about it, if someone after spending, say a year with you says–they 'hated' you for your intolerance/rigidity (just totally imaginary attributes; bearing no relation to my impression of you), you might find it unfortunate if you feel there's a misunderstanding, or may end up hating them in return. But wouldn't it be infinitely more humiliating to hear "Oh Vishwas! I never noticed him! He was so unimportant, so impotent as a person to have made any difference to my life! He was so beneath me, he never mattered! He was nonexistent!" Think about it, the second thing's much more humiliating.Of course, you can't be angry and detached at the same time! Just trying to point out that even when you're angry with someone, you're actually sharing a part of you with them!…

  89. …And, I don't think you want to do that.I'm not so impactical so as to suggest not getting angry even when those irritating elements would actively bugging you, but at least don't think of them when you're 'away' from them–their influence. This 'away' applies to both space and time. By space you must understand what I mean (geographical distance), and by time I mean whatever is past, and is not going to come back to haunt you, unless and until you allow it to haunt you.And lastly, Vishwas, quite contrary to your fear of my taking offence, I value the fact that you cared to do a re-check on one of your actions to ensure it didn't hurt me, otherwise, you must be aware as well as me, if not better, that some people say such things with sole intention to hurt.Unfortunately, I've to write such intensely personal comments on such a public forum only because I don't have your email ID! Mine is :)And wishing 'happy cramming' is like saying 'bon appetit' to someone on hunger strike! Outrightly sadistic! :(TC.

  90. @sm:Welcome to the blog!I agree, and felt even before you pointed out that "everyone has a right to choose what to wear".People have many other rights, too like right to speech, right to earn, right to pick their nose in public, right to not cover their mouths while coughing/sneezing ('cuz it's not illegal!), right to gossip, right to spread rumors, etc., some of which are even endorsed and enforced by the Constitution of India.But, do I not have a right to draw (somewhat intuitive, but possibly, logical) conclusions from how people (ab)use precisely those rights?Take care.

  91. didn't culture and stereotypical biases and prejudices form part of your assumptions? i am sure it did ?Was she on a date with you ? NoTo you it looks disgusting, to others it may each its own ketan –

  92. Hello Anrosh, and welcome to the blog!If culture has played any role in making me think on those lines–it is this: of defining a 'baseline' for how the majority of people I know conduct themselves (in this case, dressing). Anyone who behaves quite 'away' from the baseline attracts attention. This would be think of the reasons behind departing from the baseline–whether it be underdressing or overdressing.If a girl wears saree in a college on just one day, where everyone else would be wearing shirts and jeans would also make me think of the intention behind doing that.If you go to a government office where everyone is rude, inefficient and corrupt, except for one employed who does his job dutifully, with courtesy and utmost ease, the person will definitely come to your attention. It'd make me think what made him better (depart from the baseline).But, it's not cultural conditioning per se that's played much role 'cuz that's never shaped me in an immutable fashion as yet, otherwise, I wouldn't have been an atheist!"to each, their own"Where have I violated that principle in my post? I've not suggested her parents 'regulate' her behavior, not said that I'd harm her in any way. I didn't even 'gossip' about it! Just like how she's a right to wear what she desires, do I not have a right to draw conclusions from her behavior (choices she makes in context of environment she lives in)?Thanks for your comment!Take care.

  93. you have articulated your thoughts when you saw a part of the female body that you did not like – and you are making certain didn't harm the woman wearing the dress – that's all it matters. you have the right to think what you think as long as you did not harm her – PERIOD.

  94. wow… such a long writeup and a lot of discussion and comments on someone wearing some dress… I guess if one likes what he saw, he look for more of it… after all it was supposed to be seen. Almost all girls know how and what they are wearing. If one doesnt like what he saw, just look away… Does it need such a long, serious discussion, especially when you don't know what kind of a girl she is..?

  95. Hello, Rocksea!And welcome to blog!Thanks for your "wow!". That was much needed.I'm happy you could make out that this all was after all just a sham! I was practicing blogging-blogging, other respondents were practicing commenting-commenting!But, I'd have been happier had you read the post!Thanks!Take care.

  96. Damn!! So much of discussion for THIS????hahahaha..You know most f girls here are traditional.. but those who come from outside they are bit more flashy than those who have stayed here. Guys here are 'disgusted' by them. I don't quite see why they should be? I mean it is okay to get knocked out, it;s ok if you can't bear and take eyes off, but why the heck should you stretch the things beyond that is needed, it anyways shows your mentality…If I am more comfy in jeans and go to a area where salwar kameez is worn. and I wear my usual stuff to work because I am used to it, will it be my intention to catch attention. Nah. I don't think so. And why should I care. about such superficial matters as dressing sense and pay heed to buying off salwar suits. In my view, wearing jeans is absolutely fine.You have thought just too much of it. Just the fact that the dress of girl made Sooo much impact on you shows that YOU pay heed to such stupid things.Dresses are subjective things. If a american lady comes up in something even more revealing then you would be even more disgusted?? You shouldn't n can't judge anyone by dresses.I wear my usual blue jeans and one of the 2 T shirts most of the time. others pay more attention to their dresses. am I showing off or are they?? If I am, then should I do more of show off to NOT show off? I can't do so. I am comfy this way. n they won't be comfy my way.n yea, girls often dress in girls hostel, wear make up and party. for their own fun… there are no boys there either. sometimes you just enjoy dressing and looking eye catching.I have Pink Chaddis well you don't deserve as long as you don't cause trouble to girl. I don't think the girl will care so much as to THINK what you are thinking to send you Pink Chaddi. I find guys who stare funnily at skin teases of girls for a moment or two more moral than those who rant their mind off about why did she, what is her character, she shouldn't and How I felt disgusted. the thing these things just don't deserve so much attention as given, and THEY give it. :Peitherways, I end it here. too much of talking on my part on rather irrelevant subject.

  97. Hello Sakura,Did you read the disclaimers in the post properly. I've clearly stated that what irked we was not that she was wearing a Western dress. How more clearly could've I stated that fact than 'I'm no fan of conservation of Indian culture'?No one would draw my attention for wearing simply western dress (am from Mumbai). The post was about the exposed flank and peeking elastic band, which on the basis of circumstances (which have inadvertently got discussed in comments) led me to conclude was done deliberately."(thinking) Beyond what is needed"Just like in case of clothing, can other determine what degree of thinking is optimum and what is not? How nubYou say, you don't care much about dressing sense, but the girl in the post did! She was always very meticulously dressed. Even on that day!No, the impact of what girl did wasn't much. Just that I did a blog on it, makes it seem so. If you're arguing that the girl did not intend to draw attention, then I can accept your argument, and be neutral about that girl. But if you tell me, she precisely intended to gather guys' attention and girls' envy, then there's be a certain basal leve disrespect that I can't help, unless and until I totally change my ideals, and become an entirely different person believing in all show and no substance. But till I become that sort of person, this is how I will keep on judging people!If you feel after so much interaction with me that it's only dressing that I'd base my impressions of others on. If I happen to interact with that girl, my impression will keep on changing depending on what new 'data' I get to draw conclusions from. This is just a very flimsy impression I'd drawn.If you tell me people never do things purely to attract attention or make others envious, then, I'll have to tell, you've not seen enough of the World. And if you say, there are such people, I'll ask you what are their signs and symptoms?Remember, I judge people just like this in other aspects of life, too, not just dressing.If you've time, please go through following posts:(click)(click)Thanks for your feedback. I was curious about yours! :PTC.

  98. Ketan,Navigated from your comment in my post. How to dress or put on what kind of clothes in individual's choice but it must be guided by few factors – it should be appropriate to the occassion, it should not hurt someone's sentiments and it should not attract undue attention for being indecent. The last point may be debatale as indecent for one may not be so for other. For this I have just one indicator, would you like to see someone wearing such dress in presence of your parents, wife, sister or children? If the answer is NO then it is indecent. Take care

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